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chas  
#1 Posted : 08 September 2016 11:50:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

Bit of a debate going on here about tying back a final fire exit door in the open position to improve ventilation during the fine weather. Questions; - Does the final exit door (to the outside environment) have to be self closing? - Assuming the door in question can be left open could it be tied back in the open position without reprisals from the enforcing authority? Your comments and any document references would be welcomed. I have looked in the DCLG fire risk assessment guides and BS9999 and there is nothing specific about final fire exit doors being self closing etc, unless I have missed something. Thanks in advance.
FG  
#2 Posted : 08 September 2016 12:05:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
FG

My understanding has always been no, they not not require to be closed at all times nor self closing. There may be other considerations such as security for example which the business may factor in, but from a purely safety perspective no, as long as the door is wide enough, lit and opens in the direction of travel immediately when required you should be fine. Self-closure and leaving open is more important for internal fire doors as they form part of a compartment which should provide fire and smoke resistance for a prescribed period of time. Couple of other things to bear in mind would be emergency lighting and ideally there should not be a step down immediately after exiting through the door, but I digress
peterL  
#3 Posted : 08 September 2016 14:39:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
peterL

Spot on FG, only a security issue IMHO - if I had a pound for everytime this has been said to me i'd be rich, my answer is usually, quote "unless the world outside is liable to catch fire then how is the closing of an external fire door (final exit) going to protect the occupants of the building?" Pete,
jwk  
#4 Posted : 08 September 2016 15:43:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Yup, as long as the people can get out of it safely the door can be open, John
Safety Smurf  
#5 Posted : 08 September 2016 15:47:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

A common cause of debate, caused by a lack of understanding of the difference between a fire door and fire exit. Yes you can leave fire exits open generally speaking (unless its underneath an external MoE).
Mebo  
#6 Posted : 08 September 2016 16:31:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mebo

chas wrote:
- Assuming the door in question can be left open could it be tied back in the open position without reprisals from the enforcing authority?
There is an enforcing authority?
hserc  
#7 Posted : 09 September 2016 07:59:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hserc

Yes - The Fire Brigade.
Invictus  
#8 Posted : 09 September 2016 08:23:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Unless it is on to an external fire escape then it is yes,
chas  
#9 Posted : 09 September 2016 08:54:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

Thanks for the replies and confirmation, I was dealing with someone who was adamant that the fire exit door had to be kept closed (??). Thanks again.
Invictus  
#10 Posted : 09 September 2016 09:10:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

chas wrote:
Thanks for the replies and confirmation, I was dealing with someone who was adamant that the fire exit door had to be kept closed (??). Thanks again.
The problem is Chas you are your kid 'won't stop talking why don't you give it a rest' well it is Friday.
PIKEMAN  
#11 Posted : 09 September 2016 15:56:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

When doing a fire risk assessment or inspection on a simple premise remember that there are two types of "fire door" - one is robust and contains a fire, the other is to escape through and is usually a final exit. One has to be robust and normally shut and the other can be open and could be made of balsa wood!
toe  
#12 Posted : 09 September 2016 16:29:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Safety Smurf wrote:
A common cause of debate, caused by a lack of understanding of the difference between a fire door and fire exit. Yes you can leave fire exits open generally speaking (unless its underneath an external MoE).
Not so sure about the above, internal fire exits cannot be left open. There are fire exits and final fire exits. A fire door may or may not be a fire exit.
Andy14  
#13 Posted : 12 September 2016 21:30:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Andy14

Just experienced this issue on similar lines. Persons insisting that doors in question were fire doors and could not be used for anything but as a fire exit. There was a sign on it saying it was, so it must be true. I then pointed out that a door in question was also the employee entrance/exit and has been used continuously on a daily basis since moving in (even by the insisting person), so maybe the wrong signage has been used a little too liberally. Final exit doors do have other uses too. May I just add that the independent chap that did our fire risk assessment was happy for our huge roller shutters to be used, but just as long as they each have manual call point so persons could raise the alarm on exit, and sufficient management procedures are in place to ensure they are not closed when the building is occupied or that suitable and sufficient alternative final exit doors are also available on that specific elevation for when they are.
Invictus  
#14 Posted : 13 September 2016 09:11:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

toe wrote:
Safety Smurf wrote:
A common cause of debate, caused by a lack of understanding of the difference between a fire door and fire exit. Yes you can leave fire exits open generally speaking (unless its underneath an external MoE).
Not so sure about the above, internal fire exits cannot be left open. There are fire exits and final fire exits. A fire door may or may not be a fire exit.
Is there any such thing as an 'internal exit' I thought they were just fire does on an exit route. The signs are only leading to the final exit door.
firesafety101  
#15 Posted : 13 September 2016 13:15:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Andy14 wrote:
Just experienced this issue on similar lines. Persons insisting that doors in question were fire doors and could not be used for anything but as a fire exit. There was a sign on it saying it was, so it must be true. I then pointed out that a door in question was also the employee entrance/exit and has been used continuously on a daily basis since moving in (even by the insisting person), so maybe the wrong signage has been used a little too liberally. Final exit doors do have other uses too. May I just add that the independent chap that did our fire risk assessment was happy for our huge roller shutters to be used, but just as long as they each have manual call point so persons could raise the alarm on exit, and sufficient management procedures are in place to ensure they are not closed when the building is occupied or that suitable and sufficient alternative final exit doors are also available on that specific elevation for when they are.
Sorry Andy bit I think you have incorrect advice regarding use of roller shutter doors. The guide to FRA in factories and warehouses states "shutters roller, folding or sliding are not suitable for use as a final exit. However they may be suitable for escape from areas of normal risk by small numbers of staff as long as they are not likely to be obstructed and can be easily opened manually, even if normally power-operated, and the staff are familiar with the escape routes." I personally will not recommend their use but if you can satisfy the above then you can. Please remember they have to be easily opened by the smallest, weakest member of staff. The wording contains Staff which I take to mean employees and not members of the public. As for the manual fire alarm point, they should be near to fire exits but they will not assist in opening the roller shutter.
mssy  
#16 Posted : 13 September 2016 17:29:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

FS101 I dont think Andy means the roller shutter will be used as the final exit door, but that roller shutters are allowed at final exits in certain circumstances As he says "and sufficient management procedures are in place to ensure they are not closed when the building is occupied or that suitable and sufficient alternative final exit doors are also available on that specific elevation for when they are" One point of order: To comply with BS5839, manual call points are required from every exit from the premises, whether they are designated fire exits or not. This is because the BS recognises that people will use any door (including wick doors, loading bays and similar non-fire exits) during an evacuation
DanielFeeron  
#17 Posted : 15 September 2016 08:19:39(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
DanielFeeron

Not so sure about the above, internal fire exits cannot be left open.
Invictus  
#18 Posted : 15 September 2016 08:25:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

DanielFeeron wrote:
Not so sure about the above, internal fire exits cannot be left open.
They can if they are held open by a system that will release on the activation of the fire alarm.
MaxPayne  
#19 Posted : 16 September 2016 09:16:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MaxPayne

I don't think I've seen this situation as surely and internal door which you've described as a fire exit would be a fire door and hence form part of the compartment of the building. The confusion between the two is a perennial on this forum, but a fire exit is merely a means of escape and doesn't generally need to be fire rated (I accept there may be exceptions). It's quite common especially in industrial units that fire exit doors are open to allow fresh air in, and so long as the access is kept free and there is a process for ensuring they're closed at the end of the shift, there's no problem. The same applies to locking/securing fire exit doors, so long as there is a procedure to ensure they open freely when the premises is occupied there's no problem, as they are notoriously easily broken into by just relying in push bars/pads.
Invictus  
#20 Posted : 16 September 2016 11:14:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

MaxPayne wrote:
I don't think I've seen this situation as surely and internal door which you've described as a fire exit would be a fire door and hence form part of the compartment of the building. The confusion between the two is a perennial on this forum, but a fire exit is merely a means of escape and doesn't generally need to be fire rated (I accept there may be exceptions). It's quite common especially in industrial units that fire exit doors are open to allow fresh air in, and so long as the access is kept free and there is a process for ensuring they're closed at the end of the shift, there's no problem. The same applies to locking/securing fire exit doors, so long as there is a procedure to ensure they open freely when the premises is occupied there's no problem, as they are notoriously easily broken into by just relying in push bars/pads.
Agreed it is a fire door on an exit route.
Safety Smurf  
#21 Posted : 19 September 2016 15:01:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

toe wrote:
Safety Smurf wrote:
A common cause of debate, caused by a lack of understanding of the difference between a fire door and fire exit. Yes you can leave fire exits open generally speaking (unless its underneath an external MoE).
Not so sure about the above, internal fire exits cannot be left open. There are fire exits and final fire exits. A fire door may or may not be a fire exit.
It's only a fire exit if opens directly to the outside of the building. Otherwise, its a fire door (which may or may not be along an escape route).
Graham  
#22 Posted : 20 September 2016 09:34:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Graham

From Safety Smurf: "It's only a fire exit if opens directly to the outside of the building. Otherwise, its a fire door (which may or may not be along an escape route)." I thought I understood this until I looked at the fire exit doors in my large open plan office. The door to the fire escape stairs is labelled fire exit door. It does not lead directly to the outside, but to a stair well that itself eventually leads to the outside. So now I’m thinking a ‘Fire Door’ is one that is able to hold back a fire, hence the rating on these doors, and the exhortation to keep then shut. (Unless there is a closing mechanism.) It does not have to lead to a means of escape. A fire exit door leads to a means of escape from the building, not necessarily to the final door to the outside. These of course can also be ‘Fire Doors’ in the sense that they can hold back a fire, and indeed they are capable of doing this. I think the outside door is just a door to the outside used to get out of the building in case of fire. It can be kept open since it is not designed to hold back a fire (not in any circumstances I can envisage anyway), and as such may not actually be a ‘Fire Door’. Err, well this makes sense to me anyway.
thanks 1 user thanked Graham for this useful post.
toe on 22/09/2016(UTC)
Invictus  
#23 Posted : 20 September 2016 09:39:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Take 'fire exit' signs above doors etc as leading you to the wayout the 'final exit door'. all the signs are doing is showing you the way out. Pretend it's like a map directing you out. All doors on a fire exit route should be fire rated doors, to hold back smoke and fire for the rated time.
toe  
#24 Posted : 22 September 2016 18:42:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

A fire exit should lead you to a place of relative safety, which may still be in the building, for example a protected stairwell/lobby. A final fire exit will lead to a place of total safety, normally outside the building. Fire doors may/may not be on an emergency escape route, for example, on an electrical cupboard to prevent/minimise the spread of fire and or smoke.
toe  
#25 Posted : 22 September 2016 18:51:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Originally Posted by: Safety Smurf Go to Quoted Post
toe wrote:
Safety Smurf wrote:
A common cause of debate, caused by a lack of understanding of the difference between a fire door and fire exit. Yes you can leave fire exits open generally speaking (unless its underneath an external MoE).
Not so sure about the above, internal fire exits cannot be left open. There are fire exits and final fire exits. A fire door may or may not be a fire exit.
It's only a fire exit if opens directly to the outside of the building. Otherwise, its a fire door (which may or may not be along an escape route).
Not True
stonecold  
#26 Posted : 23 September 2016 07:16:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Originally Posted by: toe Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Safety Smurf Go to Quoted Post
toe wrote:
Safety Smurf wrote:
A common cause of debate, caused by a lack of understanding of the difference between a fire door and fire exit. Yes you can leave fire exits open generally speaking (unless its underneath an external MoE).
Not so sure about the above, internal fire exits cannot be left open. There are fire exits and final fire exits. A fire door may or may not be a fire exit.
It's only a fire exit if opens directly to the outside of the building. Otherwise, its a fire door (which may or may not be along an escape route).
Not True
It is true actually, fire doors are internal. A fire exit leads out of a building. Its not rocket science.
stonecold  
#27 Posted : 23 September 2016 07:24:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

I did the NEBOSH fire safety qual last year and just looked this up in my study material. Not sure why people cant understand the difference between a fire door and fire exits.
Invictus  
#28 Posted : 23 September 2016 08:32:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

It's the new RIDDOR!
Safety Smurf  
#29 Posted : 23 September 2016 09:58:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Originally Posted by: stonecold Go to Quoted Post
I did the NEBOSH fire safety qual last year and just looked this up in my study material. Not sure why people cant understand the difference between a fire door and fire exits.
I quite often find cases where doors have been mislabelled as exits. confusion is also caused where a final exit from a demise within a larger building is marked as an exit.
stonecold  
#30 Posted : 23 September 2016 10:13:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Plus... internal fire doors are normally labelled FIRE DOOR KEEP SHUT......not FIRE EXIT keep shut lol External Exits are normally labelled FIRE EXIT KEEP CLEAR.....simples
Invictus  
#31 Posted : 23 September 2016 13:46:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

You should never put a fire directional sign on a door, because when the door is open it disapears. Just for those who don't appear to be aware the arrow gives it away, they are not saying this is a fire exit the are pointing you towards the fire exit. Fire doors should not be open unless they have the appropriate furniture, i.e. magnetic device, fire exits (final Doors) can!
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