Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
sarahharris99  
#1 Posted : 28 October 2016 13:54:02(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
sarahharris99

I hope someone can advise, we had a member of staff for a short period, starting causing trouble and tried to plan an accident at work with another staff member in order to make some money on some sort of claim. He started telling other staff he would invent an illness if he ever got sacked and report us to HSE so he could claim from our company. I found out these claims from one of the staff members and as he was in his probation period decided to let the trouble maker go . A few weeks later the HSE turn up, which we expected as after trouble maker left he kept one of the staff members up to date with the fact he had reported us for something. I asked HSE for the reason for their visit and they told me it was random and they were going around business' in the local area despite the fact we had an HSE visit just 6 months earlier and they were very pleased with us. Just today i recieved a letter from a solicitor of the trouble maker than he is taking us to court for an illness and they somehow have obtained a report from the HSE from their visit with us. It feels a bit like the HSE were in cahoots to assist the trouble maker with this claim and lie to us regarding their intentions. Are the HSE allowed to lie about their reason for visiting and also pass out reports without notifying you first? Just to point out, there is nothing damaging in the report as we do follow HSE rules to keep our staff safe. They are no good to us ill or injured after all.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Mr.Flibble2.0  
#2 Posted : 28 October 2016 14:08:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

Some guidance here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsc14.pdf

Any report they do they should provide you with (they can supply information to employees but I would imagine this is very rare). If I was you I would create a diary and document everything this employee has apprently said when, where and to whom etc.

I don't believe that they have to declare the real reason for their visit and they certainly should tell you of any findings. (unless they were not a real HSE Inspector, you can check this with the HSE).

thanks 1 user thanked Mr.Flibble2.0 for this useful post.
sarahharris99 on 28/10/2016(UTC)
Stern  
#3 Posted : 28 October 2016 14:18:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

I've dealt with a fair few HSE visits over the years (albeit in constrution) and have never known them to prepare a written report, unless of course there was something wrong (in which case they'll charge you for the pleasure of writing it!!) I'd be on the phone to them, or better still emailing them, and asking why a H&S insepction report undertaken on your premises has landed in the lap of a solicitior before you! That's if this report even exists!

For what it's worth, I gave a statement to the HSE a couple of years back following an accident on one of our sites and a month or two back had a letter from them asking for my permission to release my statement to a third party (a solicitor funnily enough), under freedom of information laws.

I'm not sure if they would be under the same obligation with a "general" inspection report but if there was anything in there remotely resembling a statement from you then this may be an avenue worth looking at as well.

thanks 1 user thanked Stern for this useful post.
sarahharris99 on 28/10/2016(UTC)
Xavier123  
#4 Posted : 28 October 2016 14:57:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

Not 'lie'.  But certainly not tell you everything.  How else do you think they keep complainant details confidential?

I'd be surprised if the 'report' was more than a record of their visit and brief findings.  Typical claminant solicitor using weasel words.  Simply saying you've got an HSE report sounds threatening but it doesn't say what is says....

thanks 1 user thanked Xavier123 for this useful post.
sarahharris99 on 28/10/2016(UTC)
Granlund40055  
#5 Posted : 28 October 2016 15:14:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Granlund40055

How the HSE and Inspectors disclose information obtained during visits is controlled by S28 of the HSW Act (as amended by FOI requirements).  They can disclose information in certain circumstances.  So they will provide information to employees following a visit (eg copy of the letter they sent you to give to safety reps/display on the noticeboard). 

The Inspector would make a record of their visit, ie the purpose, who was seen, what was the outcome etc but normally this would remain confidential.  However, they have to provide information for legal proceedings. Maybe that includes any relevant information from their "report".  As I recall, a letter would be sent to the employer with copy of the information at the same time explaining why this was being disclosed. The "report" might say nothing of relevance found of course.

When I visited a workplace to investigate complaints I would not give that as a reason if the complainant was concerned they would suffer a detriment as a result.  So a random visit could be used as the reason.  (I would also warn the complainant that people can put 2 & 2 together!).  So yes the Inspector can lie as to the real reason for the visit.  But the HSE will not be in cahoots with a claimant.

Perhaps a newer ex Inspector can shed more light on current procedures, or look at this I just found on the hse website http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/foiguidance.pdf.

thanks 1 user thanked Granlund40055 for this useful post.
sarahharris99 on 28/10/2016(UTC)
sarahharris99  
#6 Posted : 28 October 2016 15:17:32(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
sarahharris99

Thanks all for responses so far. I should add a little more detail, the HSE did send us a 'report' of their findings and did charge us for it but there was nothing that we were doing horribly wrong they just suggested improvements of which we did all of them anyway. I just thought that if HSE received a report from a former employee that they would have to at least tell you they came because they recieved a report, i wouldn't expect them to tell me who but to say it was random when it certainly wasn't seemed a bit naughty and unnecessary, i should have a right to know as the employer that someone thinks we aren't up to scratch. I have documented all this for my own records (should they be necessary later) and i will take a look at that link MrFlibble.  I just didn't expect that our letter would be shared without our knowledge, seems a little sneaky and seeing as HSE have all the power not sure why they would need to hide anything from the employer, makes it look a little like they are supporting one side over the other?

sarahharris99  
#7 Posted : 28 October 2016 15:34:25(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
sarahharris99

Originally Posted by: Granlund40055 Go to Quoted Post

How the HSE and Inspectors disclose information obtained during visits is controlled by S28 of the HSW Act (as amended by FOI requirements).  They can disclose information in certain circumstances.  So they will provide information to employees following a visit (eg copy of the letter they sent you to give to safety reps/display on the noticeboard). 

Having just looked at section 28 of the health and safety at work act (thank goodness it was only 2 pages) it seems to suggest the HSE need to have cause or reason to release the information obtained during an inspection. As the staff member in question was no longer of employ when he submitted the report there are no grounds for him to receieve it as far as i can tell? We only have an initial letter from a solicitor which actually asked for the results of any recent HSE visit which we hadnt even replied to when we got another letter from them saying they had the results.
A Brown  
#8 Posted : 29 October 2016 20:43:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
A Brown

As an ex inspector, I can tell you an inspector should never 'lie' - that would be wrong, however, they sometimes don't tell dutyholders the truth.......  and there is a difference. subtle, yes, but a difference.

usually this would occurr if we responded to a complaint and the individual (it may be an employee, ex employee mindfull of their need for a reference in the future, neighbour etc) who asks to remain anonymous - we'd say we were responding to a complaint, but can'd disclose who made it.

If the complainant asked for the follow up to be non-disclosable, that meant we would follow up but NOT say it was a complaint. If asked why we had come, we'd make something up (which may or may not be convincing!), If we were asked if it was in response to a complaint we'd say "HSE visits sites for many reasons blah blah...." and not answer the question.  so not a lie as such, more avoiding telling the truth.

That would only be done in these specific circumstances, as far as I can recall, and to protect the interests of the complainant. HOWEVER, this doesn't mean HSE automatically take their word as gospel, and the visit will be to establish the truth of the report.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

Hope this helps,

Al

Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 29 October 2016 21:40:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As per the last post - did you accept a response given or probe further? Always found in auditing and more correctly preparing staff for audits "only answer the actual question asked" "do not profer information and never fill a silence with ramblings, wait for the question" Unless you asked a specific and unambiguous question the concept of "lying" is not triggered. So did you specifically ask the inspector "are you here based upon an ex-employees complaint?," otherwise it is unfair to indicate the purpose of the visit was dishonest. If you had asked the specific question then the credibility of a warrant carrier could be in question before the law.
Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 29 October 2016 21:40:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As per the last post - did you accept a response given or probe further? Always found in auditing and more correctly preparing staff for audits "only answer the actual question asked" "do not profer information and never fill a silence with ramblings, wait for the question" Unless you asked a specific and unambiguous question the concept of "lying" is not triggered. So did you specifically ask the inspector "are you here based upon an ex-employees complaint?," otherwise it is unfair to indicate the purpose of the visit was dishonest. If you had asked the specific question then the credibility of a warrant carrier could be in question before the law.
WatsonD  
#11 Posted : 31 October 2016 08:28:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Seems to me this ex-employees mistake is that he is going around bragging about what he is doing. He thinks he is clever, wnats everyone else to think he is clever and doesn't grasp the fact that others who work for a company are not going to think he is amazing for trying to swindle them. You are well rid of this person.

Probably chancing his arm for an out-of-court settlement. As has been said having a report from the HSE doesn't mean the evidence is damning

Invictus  
#12 Posted : 31 October 2016 09:04:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

As you have a copy of the report was there anything major or a real cause for concern? I gather that you did say to the inspector that you are aware that the employee was going to make a compliant as he is going to put in false claim as he has been telling everyone that is what he is going to do.

chris42  
#13 Posted : 31 October 2016 10:46:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

It is now, what it is. Just pass on the information to your insurance comapny. Get a statement from whoever he told about making up a false illness etc and make sure the insurance get that as well. Then let your insurers get on with it.

I assume there is some proof of this illness ? and that it can somehow be linked to your undertaking and potential control issue of said undertaking, even HSE report.

The devil in me would also like to comment / let slip to the member of staff that they are in contact with that you intend to go to court all the way. Just slipped out in conversation.

sarahharris99  
#14 Posted : 31 October 2016 14:09:51(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
sarahharris99

Thanks again for the responses, they are really helpful.

I didn't rquest further information from the HSE regarding their reason for visit. They just said it was random and i left it at that.

I didn't tell them that i already knew they would be coming because i knew what this ex-employee had said which i now regret as reading their website they do say they will assess if it is a malicious claim although i expect the result would have been the same. As a result of the visit we did get a letter with suggestions of improvment which of course we completed.

However as i mentioned we had the HSE visit only 6 months prior and they found nothing, we hadn't changed anything expect minor imporovements in that time so not sure how one inspector can find nothing and another can come up with all sorts of things, some of which really didn't make sense. I did dispute some items but this was not reflected in any further correspondance.

Insurers now have everything i just really wanted to know if the HSE were allowed to pass out the results without our knowledge or permission. I think i have concluded that they should not have done that given section 28. I have a feeling we are at the begining of a long process, very unfortunate that people can still outrightly lie and have employers time taken up dealing with these things.

There is no proof of this 'illness' as of yet, my understanding is the insurers would have to pay so i assume they want to try and tell his solicitors about the fibs and our evidence that proves this and hopefully they will just go away.

Thanks again

Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.