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chris42  
#1 Posted : 01 November 2016 09:39:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Hi all, a bit of an odd question. I put this in the private member’s section, but it’s such an unusual question I wondered if any non-members had come across this issue. Paul Skyrme, kindly asked for further info which I have including in this post.

We have a new building, which we have a small metal mesh storage cage on one outside wall. We didn’t build the building; we just lease it. It has been noted in a recent fire assessment carried out by the Landlord’s appointed assessor, that the lightning conductor comes out of the wall and into the ground within this cage (there are a number of other conductors around the building). The cage stores oxygen bottles. There is approx. 50mm of lightning conductor exposed between coming out of the wall and into the ground and appears to be shielded by a thick layer / coating of plastic. The bottles can’t get direct contact, but can get a couple of inches away.

The assessor feels this is a problem, do any of you know of any guidance that would help me determine if this really is a problem or just a flight of fancy by the assessor. I assume he feels if there was a lightning strike that it could arc across to the bottle. I would have thought it would take the easiest route to ground (via the conductor) and I see no reason for it to arc across.

If it is a possible problem, is there any additional shielding that we may put at the back of the cage.

We cannot move the cage anywhere else on site due to internal road layouts and need to keep it away from other things, also in a safe place. The problem I now have, is to address this concern. I don't want to move the cage as this would become a really big problem logistically. I tried to Google this issue but as you can imagine I could not find an answer one way or another. This site is full of knowledgeable experience people and I hoped someone had some info or could point me to some guidance that would allow me to close out the issue from the report.

Chris

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 01 November 2016 10:30:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

 

Firstly doesn’t try to second guess what the assessor is thinking about: ask him directly what his is talking about and get him  to explain it. I suspect it is “a flight of fancy”. Lighting is such a powerful force of nature, it will largely go where it wants and there is very little you can do to shield something from it apart from creating Faraday’s cage around the cylinders.

What is the chance of the place being hit by lightning as compared to a major fire breaking out which could also damage the cylinders?  Or someone reversing into the cylinders and damaging them that way?  

Bob Hansler  
#3 Posted : 01 November 2016 11:54:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Bob Hansler

There is a basic misunderstanding about lightening conductors.  

If the down-lead/conductor is connected to the rod/plate aray then this should not lead to any arc jummping over to any metal work.   The voltage and current would take the lowest path to earth (it is why we install them) The poor contact to earth via a gas bottle is unlikely in a carretly installed and tested system.

Nothing wrong with installaing a Fariday cage though bonded to the electrical installation.

However, if there are any sharp angles in the down-conductor then flashover my occure.  This is to poor design of course.

Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 01 November 2016 13:22:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

"There is approx. 50mm of lightning conductor exposed between coming out of the wall and into the ground and appears to be shielded by a thick layer / coating of plastic."

Are you sure this is a lightning conductor? They usually come down at or very near corners.

Bob Hansler  
#5 Posted : 01 November 2016 14:03:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Bob Hansler

http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/lightning_design_considerations_1.htm

http://www-public.tnb.com/eel/docs/furse/BS_EN_IEC_62305_standard_series.pdf

This may help

chris42  
#6 Posted : 01 November 2016 16:22:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Thanks for the replies and Links (bedtime reading). Yes, the assessor feels that if there was a lightning strike it could damage the bottles. Though I have noted a glaring error in his report (or should I say another glaring error). He is referring to acetylene bottles in his report, which is another cage approx. 3m away as it should be. The conductor is in the oxygen cage I have photos and they are not acetylene (colour gives it away)

Yes, it is a lightning conductor as I have checked the installation drawings, and it is a 25mm x 3mm PVC sheathed copper conductor. It does not appear to be constructed as per the drawing I have as it shows it exiting the wall 500mm below ground level. I will visit the site later in the week and check what’s what myself.

The plot thickens, but the question remains the same.

Thanks, all

firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 01 November 2016 17:47:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Chris, definitely get back to your fire risk assesser and get clarification. What information does he posess to make his recommendation and I worry that he has confused acetylene cylinders with oxygen. I do know that lightning takes the shortest route to earth but not sure if it would affect oxygen cylinders like he suggests.
mssy  
#8 Posted : 01 November 2016 19:36:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

I agree, this assessor appears to be overly cautious 

Is this area a shared/common area with other uses of the premises? I am asking as you say the FRA was being conducted (excuse the pun) by the Landlord's assessor. he should just stick to common areas

If a muliti occupied premises, you will also have to cmplete a FRA for your demise and any common areas your staff may resort to. So what does your FRA say?

A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 02 November 2016 09:30:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

 If a bolt of lightning was to strike a gas cylinder the energy would be sufficient to split it open but the FRA guy should have by definition have been looking at the risk or likelihood of this happening. I agree with most replies that this sounds like a fairly low risk in the sense that it its unlikely to happen and you don’t need to do anything significant to manage this risk. What exactly did he want you to do?  A thin layer of insulator won’t stop a lightning bolt (Faraday’s cage might protect them but is it really necessary?)

chris42  
#10 Posted : 02 November 2016 10:31:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

The report was commissioned through the landlord for both our needs and his. So, no communal areas as such, but a single report covering our activities and his building. It was a deal done by our MD. I don’t have any contact details for this person, as it was all done via the landlord. According to the report he has GIFireE and has been on a specialist 12-week course (I didn’t think any of these courses were that long)

The wording from the report is:

The external acetylene storage cage has the lightning conductor within it. It is recommended this cage is moved so the acetylene cylinder is clear of the lightning earthling strap in the event of a lightning strike damaging this cylinder.

We go on and on about knowing your limitations and bringing in experts, but this is not the first or even second FRA company we have used who’s reports leave a lot to be desired. Endless pages of generic waffle, and they seem to either just throw hand grenades which you have to resolve yourself (the non-expert) or they make daft suggestions.

He would have seen quite clearly we had nowhere else to put the cage and maintain distance from the acetylene bottles, but I guess that is not his problem.

Forgot to note previously that we do have lightning conductors on each corner of the building, but due to its size there is also one in the middle of each wall (or at least that is what the plan states - will check tomorrow)

I think I will be signing this off on the bases of the statistical likelihood of this being a problem (including the likely hood of someone being in the area, which is unlikely, I think some of the links above covered this) and the assessor being in error as the cage does not contain flammable gas bottles. I will try and contact him direct and ask where he gets his info from, but I suspect it is just his opinion. You don’t hear of people and other things getting zapped due to their proximity to a buildings lightning conductor. 

Thanks for everyone’s input

firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 02 November 2016 11:09:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Chris, please clarify. Your initial post says oxygen bottles in the cage, ypur last post says acetylene. GIFire E could mean different things depending on how the grade was attained. Could be by exam with the IFE or could be through reciprocal arrangement by passing the Station Officer exam in a fire brigade. The former is more fire technical based, the latter more practical fire fighting based. I have GIFireE through the latter. As for his 10 week course, if he is similar age to myself he could mean a 12 week course at the Fire Service College. I did that, along with a few other courses but the fire safety content is only three weeks. It does annoy me how people can carry out fire risk assessments and leave grey areas like this. Did he visit to deliver the report and explain the contents or simply send it through the post or email. Where do you go when you have a situation like this ? 1. Back to the assesser, and,or 2. To the local FRS fire safety officer. Good advice received on here but only informal. Take care and good luck.
chris42  
#12 Posted : 02 November 2016 11:25:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Thanks, Firesafety101 and all other responders, sometimes its good to discuss.

To clarify, his report said cage with Acetylene bottles in it, but in truth they are Oxygen bottles. So, his report was in error. We do have an acetylene cage, but it is 3m away and no lightning conductor in it.

He had been in the fire brigade for quite a few years previously, and I note from other threads over the years that does not necessarily make him either a good or bad assessor.

The report was Emailed through from our landlord, so no chance to question.

I have googled him and found an email address. I have just sent an email asking for background information of this situation and clarifying the Acetylene / oxygen mix up in his report.

Now I wait!

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