Rank: Forum user 
|
I thought I'd already posted this but I can;t see it so sorry if this is a duplicate/.
I own and rent out a flat. Top floor 3 storey ex council. When I bought it some years ago I replaced the existing glazed front (landing) door with a 1 hour door, hot and cold seals, fire rated letter box and hinges. Its fitted into the existing steel door frame which itself is fitted into a masonry wall. It opens onto the top landing of the single exit stairs which serve a total of 4 flats (2 each on each of two floors plus 2 further flats on ground floor. There are two separate final exits at ground floor level. In 2014 - after I had done this work the council upgraded the fire precautions in the rest of the block. They replaced all the apartment front doors that open onto the stairwell with fire rated doors. Installed emergency lighting and smoke detection. They asked for proof that our front door was fire rated. I couldnt supply them with a certificate either of manufacture or for installation. But I got the opinion of a colleague who is on the IFE register. I provided photographs of the various features and offered to make the installation available to their assessor or inspector to verify that the door was satisfactory. They continue to demand a certificate of installation saying that this is a requirement of the RRO. They are threatening me with an injunction. As far as I am aware although there are trade-certification schemes for installation of fire doors there is no statutory requirement. But I could be wrong! I wish I'd kept the paperwork proving that the door itself was fire rated - but I didnt .
Views. Am I wrong, Do I continue to push back or do I roll over and let them kick me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
As always when someone says "it's a legal requirement", try asking them for a photocopy of the relevant bit. Ever so politely of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Richard, I am no fire safety expert but this is my take on your particular situation, it is not a legal requirement to have evidence of a fire door certification - but it is good practice. Unfortunately for you some residents change their front doors in a block and do not install a fire rated door, which compromises the fire safety integrity of the whole block. The only way for the Council to be sure that private landlords and leaseholders have a fire rated front door is with a certifcate of the door and installation.
If you cannot get certification retrospectively, which I think you can but perhaps at a cost, then I suggest you stick with your current stance by insisting the door is properly fire rated. In the end I think the Council will either give up or send someone to inspect the door and confirm. Incidentally, there should be a kite mark on the top of the door confirming it is a fire rated door. If not, you may have some difficulty proving it is a compliant FD30/60S.
I would be interested in the outcome.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
Richard, whoever manufactured the fire door would have added a metal (brass) plate on the top edge denoting fire door and the fire rating.
Use a small mirror to look for this on the top edge. Don't rub your fingers along because you may find some splinters.
If it is there take a photo and present that to your council.
Failing that do you remember where the door was purchased, the supplier etc. They will provide certificates free of charge.
Did you have a vision panel fitted to the door, this is not clear in your post. If you did, look for etched markings on the glass. If you find any look them up on Google to see if the glass is fire rated.
Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Originally Posted by: firesafety101 
Did you have a vision panel fitted to the door, this is not clear in your post. If you did, look for etched markings on the glass. If you find any look them up on Google to see if the glass is fire rated.
Good luck.
Just to elaborate on the glass bit, only some Pyro glasses have the BSI stamps on them. Pyroshields rarely have stamps but will have wire running through the glass. (Georgian Wired) often mistaken for security glass. PK
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user 
|
If you can't supply certification then there is no way to prove it is s fire door, photographs or otherwise. The top edge should have a certificate number on it, if it doesn't then the council will make you put a new one in. If it was me I would make it a whole doorset and have it fitted by someone who has third party certification.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
I'm somewhat encourage that no-one has cited a piece of legislation, BS, or other standard which says I have to be able to prove it.
In terms of fitting a new door set. You'd have to knock the wall down to install a new frame and it would be nothing like as good as the existing 1950s steel door frame which would survive a nuclear blast!
When I did a fire risk assessment course the instructors (at Morton) said that just because you don't have a piece of paper provigin that a fire door is capable of holding back heat/smoke for a certain period doesnt mean that you have to recommend ripping out all the doors in a premise and fit new doors.. Not all doors manufactured as fire doors still have relevant tags or marks and lots of doors that werent manufactured as fire doors are still capable of operating as such. The lack of a mark or piece of paper doesnt render them ineffective.
(it doesnt have a view panel by the way).
They said that a competent risk assessor (or building inspector) can use her judgement.
I shall stick to my guns for now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Originally Posted by: RichardPerry1066 I'm somewhat encourage that no-one has cited a piece of legislation, BS, or other standard which says I have to be able to prove it.
In terms of fitting a new door set. You'd have to knock the wall down to install a new frame and it would be nothing like as good as the existing 1950s steel door frame which would survive a nuclear blast!
When I did a fire risk assessment course the instructors (at Morton) said that just because you don't have a piece of paper provigin that a fire door is capable of holding back heat/smoke for a certain period doesnt mean that you have to recommend ripping out all the doors in a premise and fit new doors.. Not all doors manufactured as fire doors still have relevant tags or marks and lots of doors that werent manufactured as fire doors are still capable of operating as such. The lack of a mark or piece of paper doesnt render them ineffective.
(it doesnt have a view panel by the way).
They said that a competent risk assessor (or building inspector) can use her judgement.
I shall stick to my guns for now.
Should of given all information on intial post, sometimes it's is like 'riddles in the dark' when Bilbo ask's 'what have I go in my pocketsess'
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Richard, in my opinion if you did your course at the Fire Service College you may be more knowledgeable by lots of us here and even the people who have asked you about your fire door.
I agree you should stick to your guns and see what they do then.
You can ask for their documents relating to proof of quality (fire door) and their personal qualifications which may be a lower standard than yours.
You can also request a visit by the local fire safety office to gain some guidance from them.
Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.