Hi all,

I'm after a bit of advice and reassurance regarding training of self employed subcontractors. 

Quick bit of background:

I have recently started at a construction contractor where all of the operatives doing the work on site are self-employed. The majority will primarily work for us, although most will also pick up jobs for other companies, depending on where the work is. Many of these subbies are paid as individuals whereas some are paid as part of a gang (ie the gang leader gets paid and then pays the one or two guys who work with him). None are PAYE employees.

Where i'm stuck:

My issue is regarding how far our responsibilities go when it comes providing training for these guys.

When i arrived a few weeks back, the company had for some time been trying (and failing) to operate a training matrix and was paying for everybodies training. Managing a matrix with 200+ permanent staff is challenging at the best of times but with constantly changing self employed workforce made up of individuals and gangs, it becomes near enough impossible. On top of this, many of our clients are now (quite rightly in my opinion) insisting that everybody has the correct type of CSCS card meaning that we now have around 100 experienced guys needing NVQs. The cost of this will be tens of thousands and will tie me up for the next X number of months.

My first thought when i arrived here was hang on, these guys aren't employees and don't exclusively work for us so why are we paying for all their training!? (Having their cake and eating it comes to mind!).

My stance is that we should set our "entry criteria" for any subcontractors wishing to work for us (NVQ, Asbestos Awareness, correct CSCS card etc), have them complete a pre-start form and issue them a copy of our H&S Standards documenmt (essentially a watered down "layman's" version of the H&S Policy). They can then be monitored out on site by supervisors and during audits & inspections with any subbie not playing ball being dealt with accordingly.

However, certain people within the business do not agree with my stance and are intent on treating these subcontractors like PAYE staff. Not only is this costing the company thousands (unnecessairly in my opinion) it is going to be an almost impossible task as even getting a definitive list of names is seemingly impossible.

Has anybody else been in this sort of situation? If so, how did you approach it?

Many thanks in advance

Stern

Originally Posted by: WatsonD

I work for a construction company with what sounds like a similar set-up to yours.

I would suggest you need to make individual descisions based on the need you have for the qualifications you are looking at. For instance CSCS should be their individual responsibility.

However, someting like Asbestos awareness or IOSH MS, (a bit more and something we want to raise our standard rather than a requirement) we etc we can negotiate better deals by buying these as online courses in bulk. If its not too much PP then we will cover the cost, but if it is a bit more we may meet them halfway by paying half.

For the NVQs, again bulk buying will help you with individual costs. Speak with a few colleges/ training providers, they have funds they can access, and can reduce costs by visiting several candidates on one site, etc. and they will bite-your-hands-off to get your business. There is no reason why it should cost you tens of thousands. In fact right-place, right-time (funding is sporadic), you may even be able to get these for free.

Hi WatsonD,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I used to work for a large main contractor where several of the site managers were self employed / ltd companies and we'd take a similar approach in as much as we'd contribute towards their training (at director's discretion). Admittedly we would arrange the training but in that situation i was dealing with about 15-20 "permanent" members of staff.

The issue I have here is that we have on our books hundreds of self employed guys who can come and go as they please (the beauty of being a self employed tradesman). Some are individuals but, as i said before, many are parts of gangs and the reality is that we won't know every sinlge person in every sinlge gang, only the main subbie (the one who gets paid). 

As i said, even if i could spend the next month collating a list of every subbie, and every subbie of a subbie, it would probably never be 100% accurate and even if it was, it would be out of date by the time it was completed anyway! 

So far as funding of NVQs goes (via the CITB i assume you mean?), the company has been down that road and it doesn't seem to be an option. If they were PAYE then yes we could recoup some, if not all, of the costs of training they're not, so it seems we can't.

They did negotiate some good bulk prices on NVQs before i  got here (£300-£400 per person if i recall) but multiply that by the 100+ guys who need them and that's a lot of money. Plus there's always the need for PASMA, IPAF and all the other training asked for on site. On top of that there's all the time and effort which will go into managing the whole process (it would be a full time job for a person).

All that aside, my feeling is still the same; they're not our employees, so why do we need to pay for/arrange their training?

Hi WatsonD,

Thanks for that, just nice to hear somebody else say it! 

During my career i've managed supply chains (as a principal contractor) and employees (working for a contractor) and to me, whilst we're never a principal contractor, this needs to be managed with a supply chain approach:

• Pre-Start / Pre-Qual Forms completed by all subbies working for us.
• Clear, simple set of rules which they are expected to follow whilst working for us.
• Clear list of training requirements which they all need if they want to work for us.
• Monitor their performance on site.

I've still got some training to worry about (managers, office staff etc) but that's around 30 permanent staff, not 300+ temporary ones! 

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the response. It wouldn't be so bad if i was talking about say 50 or so self employed individuals. The problem i'm facing is that i've got a mixture of:

1. S/E indviduals who are paid directly by us
2. S/E individuals who are part of a gang and paid via through S/E individual 
3. S/E individuals who are part of a gang and paid via a Ltd company.

Getting a list together of all the number 1's is simple enough (i can just check who's been paid that week!). It's knowing who the number 2's and 3's are that's the issue. A number 2 or 3 could simply be a subbie with a labourer or it could be someone who's head of a gang of 10 or more subbies.  We'll obviously know who the subbie is, what we won't know is precise details of everybody who works through him day in day out and, as i said above, even if we did it would likely change on a weekly basis anyway! 

Furthermore, as i said before, may work for us 75% of the time, but the second the work dries up or they get offered a better rate elsewhere they'll be off working for another company. A few weeks later, when the work dries up there they'll be back. Such is the nature of self employed subcontractors. It's like a merry go round!

So whilst i'd agree that we need them to have those key bits of training (asbestos, manual handling, PASMA, IPAF etc) i don't see why we should be expected to foot the bill when other companies (competitors!) will be seeing the benefits. 

Andy,

It's definitely going to be a long old road!

Prior to my starting here, many of the clients we worked for were, how can i put it nicely, a big "old fashioned" when it came to H&S. Some of them probabaly thought CDM stood for Cadbury's Dairy Milk. Training was done (and we paid) but there was never really any structure to it with people within the company all doing their own things (some paying for their regular subbies, some not).

The company as grown rapidly over the past few years (hence me being taken on as a permanent H&S Manager) and have begun working for some much better, higher profile clients. Training is something which naturally falls under my remit. The issue is, it's the usual "you're the safety bloke, sort it out" kind of message but my answer of "it's not my/our responsibility, it's the subbie's responsibility" doesn't seem to be sinking in with them.

If the company is happy to waste £1000's then that's none of my business. My concern is that it's a task that, even with the best will in the world, is impossible!