Originally Posted by: Tigers

A circular from St Johns  Ambulance has just landed on my desk stating HSE's new rules on defibrillator training will apply from Jan 1st 2017.

Looking on the HSE's defib site it states:

"In-depth training in the use of automated external defibrillators (AEDs) is not currently part of either the Emergency First Aid at Work and First Aid at Work courses.  However, HSE welcomes the presence of awareness training in these courses as it instils greater confidence in the use of AEDs." 

Not a good sign St Johns are spinning info now

Even the most respectable of us will do things for money which we might regret later.

I thought the point of automated external defibrillators was that you didn't need any training? They were supposed to guide you as to what to do and when, and monitor the patient. They are increasingly being put in public places, one supermarket near us is putting them at their stores with a means for anyone to access them. I can't imagine training for them is any more complicated than a familiarisation session.

PUWER?

Only for a select number of professions.

Medical Devices according to the EU and gov.uk 

https://www.gov.uk/drug-device-alerts/automatic-external-defibrillator-aed-lifepak-cr-plus-and-lifepak-express-risk-of-failure-to-deliver-a-shock

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit

PUWER?

Only for a select number of professions.

Medical Devices according to the EU and gov.uk 

https://www.gov.uk/drug-device-alerts/automatic-external-defibrillator-aed-lifepak-cr-plus-and-lifepak-express-risk-of-failure-to-deliver-a-shock

This is stated somewhere on the HSE website I'll dig it out later, in the meantime here is a government document that also makes this point in reference to AED's. At the end of the day if it is provided in a workplace I can't see how it doesn't meet the 'Work Equipment' definition:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519994/AED_guide_for_schools.pdf

“work equipment” means any machinery, appliance, apparatus, tool or installation for use at work (whether exclusively or not);

I don't see why it can fall within scope of both PUWER and Medical Devices.

Edited by user 13 December 2016 16:53:41(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I also received this letter. However, as we don't have defibs on site, I see nothing to be gained by having our first aiders trained on them - until such time as our position changes.

A pet hate of mine is the various suppliers of services sending unsolicitated mail trying to drum up busines. I personally find letters offering services and reinforcing it by making legal references in bold to be quite insulting and they generally end up in the round file.

The other laugh is all the consultancy companies who phone up, ask to speak to the person responsible for safety and then try to sell you services which are, in effect, doing your job. So your employer appoints you and then people ring up and offer to take on parts of your work for a price - how to make yourself redundant!

Originally Posted by: biker1

I thought the point of automated external defibrillators was that you didn't need any training? They were supposed to guide you as to what to do and when, and monitor the patient. They are increasingly being put in public places, one supermarket near us is putting them at their stores with a means for anyone to access them. I can't imagine training for them is any more complicated than a familiarisation session.

I would agree with this as far as the use of an AED being made available in a public place and due to its programming a first time user should be able to follow the audible instructions on how to use the equipment on a casualty. However as a trained first responder I would agree that any appointed first responders should have training in its use as there are other factors to consider when dealing with an unresponsive casualty and by incorporating the use of the AED into the FAW or FPOS-I course would benefit any person wishing to become an appointed first responder within their organisation.

While on subject of medical training is every body aware of the change from FAW/FPOS-I to FREC as of the 31st of December 2016?

AEDs are appearing in more and more public places but many people would not have the confidence to use one and if they did then without training are likely to take longer to get started.  They may also make other mistakes like using the AED in a wet environment or on wet skin, not removing underwired bra, not checking the area for danger e.g. electric shock.  I hope all places where AEDs are located especially workplaces, shopping centres etc. will act quickly to ensure all first aiders are fully trained.  I am sure most have already done this.  

thank you John. Had missed that link and had searched the HSE web site and found nothing!

I sent the HSE an email the other day asking this very question and also their intentions. I'm still waiting on the reply, will report back. 

I'm interested to know myself as I am currently writing an aricle on the topic for the iiRSM Health & Safety at Work magazine. 

It's well known in the First aid teaching sector as they are signed up to the first aid at work bulletins but it seems that little more has been done by the HSE. Quite frustrating as it has created a fair bit of confusion. 

Originally Posted by: markwmansell

I'm not sure why the HSE would publish prominently. The changes affect training course and as such a responsible training provider would A. keep up to date with the syllabus and B. communicate the changes to customers, as required. If the provider has not communicated the changes I would consider using a more trustworthy provider.

If I remember correctly the changes was published by the British Safety Council, IOSH and St Johns (as stated in the opening post) - along with other providers. Anyway, I think we have gone off topic slightly.

The HSE has a number of pages on its website which currently offer advice opposite to  that in the summers first aid bulletin. The bulletin states that GEIS 3 will be updated along with other publications. L74 also lays down the syllabus which is now incorrect. As yet none of this has be updated.

The trouble here is that business are checking the advice they are getting from providers (such as myself, quite rightly so too as lets face it its not uncommon for companies to try and sell you something you don't need on the basis that "it's law". When these businesses go to check the regulations and guidance it tells them that it is not required.

Far from ideal in my opinion.  

From the BSC it was my key account manager and for IOSH there was a news item in one of the update emails even if it was few months ago - 98% sure. In terms of training providers I use St Johns and already buy the separate course so will save money. The reason I use the separate course is for the same reasons as other posts have ready posted about.

As for the HSE positon I checked the same way most people do these days and used google to search HSE and found the article already mentioned within the past posts.

On the point about HSE not changing documents let’s not forget it is usual for the HSE to change documents after date of implementation.

Originally Posted by: markwmansell

From the BSC it was my key account manager and for IOSH there was a news item in one of the update emails even if it was few months ago - 98% sure. In terms of training providers I use St Johns and already buy the separate course so will save money. The reason I use the separate course is for the same reasons as other posts have ready posted about.

As for the HSE positon I checked the same way most people do these days and used google to search HSE and found the article already mentioned within the past posts.

On the point about HSE not changing documents let’s not forget it is usual for the HSE to change documents after date of implementation.

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=hse%20defibrillators

Nowhere in this first 5 pages of search results (I stopped looking after that) does it provide the First Aid Bulletin in question. But there is 4 of the top results from the HSE tell you that it is not required. 

I teach and assess OFQUAL and SQA Accredited FAW, EFAW, Defibrillation, Anaphalyxis management, Oxygen Administration courses (amoungst others) and LOTS of people have come to me thoroughly confused. I can't blame them. My point is these changes and how they were communicated could have been much better managed by the HSE.

Even the iiRSM published an article last month telling its readers that there was no plan to revise defibrillation training hence when i pointed the error out to them they asked if i'd like to write an article for them. 

I do advacate a full defibrillation course though as opposed to the 20 minute overview in FAW/EFAW. Getting proper hand on experience with these devices is very valuable. I can say this having used them in countless occassions. The fact that defibrillation is included in FAW and EFAW is a very welcome step forward. 

I've never understood why some people are reluctant to train their staff to use AEDs. My employer has mandated them for many years on our sites as well as training staff (both 'official' first aiders and others who are not) to use them.

I fully unerstand that they are designed to be 'idiot proof' but in my experience (and as some have stated) training can make a massive difference when it comes to effective use, not least if CPR is also required.

I think that it's fantastic that they are becoming more widely available and completely agree that the training should now be part of the first aid at work course. If it were up to me I'd train everyone (in both first aid and AED use) - just think of the lives that would be saved!

Originally Posted by: Adams29600

I also received this letter. However, as we don't have defibs on site, I see nothing to be gained by having our first aiders trained on them - until such time as our position changes.

Maybe you will be providing a better service if you investigated where the nearest offsite AED is located and circulate this information in anticipation that there may well be a need for one in an emergency.

Character limit...oh well...Response to the above: Below!

Thank you for your advice on cardiac problems. Much appreciated.

I did not drive myself, as I say. And my driver was an NHS trained first aid person, also employed at the local hospital in a technician status.

The ambulance response times here are quoted as 10 minutes. They also recently got graded, on a CQC "un-notified" inspection as a grade less than "poor"

Response times on a Friday night are pretty bad...over 20 minutes for a red response.

Anyway, it was atrial fibrillation...so not much chance of pushing up the daisies.

The BMJ page also gives recovery rates for outside-hospital arrests....don't read it: Bad.

A&E closures...check the web for "leaked" STP reports...and note my local hospital is in an area with a group of 3 hospitals all with A&E units...the hospital, along with the two others, have been told that one of the three is going to lose an A&E unit. That's a 20 minute drive from my town with blues on. That'll do the already poor recovery rates a lot of good.

"Hang on, are you suggesting that AED's are becoming more prominent to enable the NHS to close A&E departments?? What a load of....."

No, I was not suggesting that. You implied it.

Funnily enough, if that's the word, I'm typing this with a 24-hour ambulatory ECG recorder attached, and  getting in the way!