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A McLellan  
#1 Posted : 24 January 2017 16:41:22(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
A McLellan

I note the recent prosecution of an analyst in the HSE info pages, http://press.hse.gov.uk/2017/asbestos-analyst-fined-for-falsifying-documents/ however is anyone else a little disturbed by this. I have some concerns for the following reasons;

1. If that is a photo of the enclosure in question then the Contractor has not done a good job (or for that matter, bothered at all) with his pre clean and carpet is left on the floor,

2. The Analyst was appointed by the contractor so how can the Analyst provide "Independant" services in accordance with HSG 248.

3. Is there about to be the new Analysts guide published and nothing promotes this more than a little publicity.

Am I the only one who thinks this HSE visit may have got the focus wrong and should the focus also have been on the contractors performance and the role played by the client. Afterall CDM espouses this approach. Whilst I have no sympathy for anybody who falsifies this documentation, I can't help but feel as if there has been a bit of a stitch up.

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 25 January 2017 09:51:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

1) We are not informed of the time line of the photo so your comments are unfair - it may have been at point of arrival when the contractor was establishing the containment zone or during the removal works including any contaminated materials such as carpet

2) The analyst is by appointment and therefore not a direct employee = "independent"

The focus seems correct - the contractor engaged the services of a specialist whose report did not present fact putting the contractor, their employees and others in danger.

In the piece it states the client obtained the services of a second specialist (had they proceeded based upon the first report then yes Client/Contractor may have had a case to answer) what it does not say is why this happened - between the lines someone identified issues with the report and raised concern with the HSE.

No stitch up involved.

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 25 January 2017 09:51:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

1) We are not informed of the time line of the photo so your comments are unfair - it may have been at point of arrival when the contractor was establishing the containment zone or during the removal works including any contaminated materials such as carpet

2) The analyst is by appointment and therefore not a direct employee = "independent"

The focus seems correct - the contractor engaged the services of a specialist whose report did not present fact putting the contractor, their employees and others in danger.

In the piece it states the client obtained the services of a second specialist (had they proceeded based upon the first report then yes Client/Contractor may have had a case to answer) what it does not say is why this happened - between the lines someone identified issues with the report and raised concern with the HSE.

No stitch up involved.

RayRapp  
#4 Posted : 25 January 2017 17:47:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

The article does not specify how the falsefied report came to light. However the analyst got away with it lightly in my opinion. He should have lost his licence to operate - that would have sent a message out to other would be offenders. 

A McLellan  
#5 Posted : 26 January 2017 10:28:45(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
A McLellan

Thanks Roundtuit. I appreciate photos have a narrative that is not given in these articles and that is very relevant. We also are unaware of the pretext to the works but to me the photo says the area of containment has been created prior to a preclean of the transit route. I also work in a juristiction where the HSE insist that the Analytical company's Client is not the removal contractor. There have been very very good reasons why not as demonstrated by visiting removal contractors. I wish I could find more of the trial and evidence information about this case.

Stern  
#6 Posted : 26 January 2017 15:25:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Originally Posted by: A McLellan Go to Quoted Post

I note the recent prosecution of an analyst in the HSE info pages, http://press.hse.gov.uk/2017/asbestos-analyst-fined-for-falsifying-documents/ however is anyone else a little disturbed by this. I have some concerns for the following reasons;

1. If that is a photo of the enclosure in question then the Contractor has not done a good job (or for that matter, bothered at all) with his pre clean and carpet is left on the floor,

2. The Analyst was appointed by the contractor so how can the Analyst provide "Independant" services in accordance with HSG 248.

3. Is there about to be the new Analysts guide published and nothing promotes this more than a little publicity.

Am I the only one who thinks this HSE visit may have got the focus wrong and should the focus also have been on the contractors performance and the role played by the client. Afterall CDM espouses this approach. Whilst I have no sympathy for anybody who falsifies this documentation, I can't help but feel as if there has been a bit of a stitch up.

1. Given that you can see the 3 point entry sign, i would suggest that this photo was taken outside of the enclosure. That said, the area outside of the bag/airlock pictured is a mess and should have been cleared to allow a safe transit route.

2. I spent a couple of years working with a licenced asbestos removal contractor and never once had a client appointed analyst. I thought it was odd but the HSE/ARCA were always fine with it, provided your Plan of Works clearly specified who they had been apointed by.

3. Not sure but who knows!

Personally i think the HSE have got it right (and that's not because of a dislike of analysts - honest!) The analyst is the last line of defence to make sure that the job has been done properly. They don't just check the enclosure but also the areas around it as well as ensuring that the work has been undertaken in accordance with the plan of works. They will also often undertake personal/background air monitoring thoughout the job.

For an analyst to knowingly falsify documentation is unforgiveable and could potentially have put lives at risk.

Stern  
#7 Posted : 26 January 2017 15:48:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Originally Posted by: RayRapp Go to Quoted Post

The article does not specify how the falsefied report came to light. However the analyst got away with it lightly in my opinion. He should have lost his licence to operate - that would have sent a message out to other would be offenders. 

RayRapp, i may be wrong but i don't believe that analysts/surveyors need a licence (i worked for a fully licenced removal contractor a while back but i can't remember what our analysts/surveyors had, if anything).

And in any event if there was a licene, it would be held by the company rather than the individual. So stripping him of it wouldn't be an option. I definitely think he got off lightly though, knowing first hand the importance of their role.

Stern  
#8 Posted : 26 January 2017 15:52:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Originally Posted by: A McLellan Go to Quoted Post

Thanks Roundtuit. I appreciate photos have a narrative that is not given in these articles and that is very relevant. We also are unaware of the pretext to the works but to me the photo says the area of containment has been created prior to a preclean of the transit route. I also work in a juristiction where the HSE insist that the Analytical company's Client is not the removal contractor. There have been very very good reasons why not as demonstrated by visiting removal contractors. I wish I could find more of the trial and evidence information about this case.

It's not a legal requirement for the analyst to be appointed independently though so how can the HSE be enforcing this on you? In 2 years of working for a licneced contractor we never once had a client assigned analyst and always used one of three or four regulars from our own supply chain.

We were ARCA members (regularly auditted) and also went through a licence renewal in my relatively short time there and this was never a problem, providing it was clearly detailed in the plan of works.

Stern  
#9 Posted : 26 January 2017 15:56:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

1) We are not informed of the time line of the photo so your comments are unfair - it may have been at point of arrival when the contractor was establishing the containment zone or during the removal works including any contaminated materials such as carpet

2) The analyst is by appointment and therefore not a direct employee = "independent"

The focus seems correct - the contractor engaged the services of a specialist whose report did not present fact putting the contractor, their employees and others in danger.

In the piece it states the client obtained the services of a second specialist (had they proceeded based upon the first report then yes Client/Contractor may have had a case to answer) what it does not say is why this happened - between the lines someone identified issues with the report and raised concern with the HSE.

No stitch up involved.

Just to add my two cents:

1) The shot appears to be taken from outside of the enclosure. Proper practice would have meant that the area outside of the enclosure was cleaned and cleared before enclosure construction even started (slips, trips etc). 

2) The reference to the independence of the analyst is to do with who appointed him, not who he worked for. For example, on some occasions the client may appoint the analsyst (independent) whereas on other occasions the removal contractor may use one from their own supply chain (not independent).

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