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ryangavin777  
#1 Posted : 29 January 2017 15:36:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ryangavin777

Hi,

I'm new to IOSH and reasonably new to the H&S industry as a career too. I'm curious as to where most of you get copies of EN/ISO standards e.g. 20471, 20345 etc.

I understand they can be downloaded from the ISO website (they're quite expensive!) but I'm curious what most of you do? Do your companies purchase them or do you buy them yourself? I'm quite an inquisitive person and like to understand everything before I give advice or suggest what standard a product needs to meet.

Looking forward to your replies.

Thanks,

Ryan

paul.skyrme  
#2 Posted : 29 January 2017 17:20:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Ryan,

Are you employed or a seflf-employed consultant?

If you are employed, then you have no requirement for any standards whatsoever.

The requirement falls on your employer

thanks 1 user thanked paul.skyrme for this useful post.
ryangavin777 on 29/01/2017(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 29 January 2017 17:22:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

You have already found the definitive source for ISO standards.

In Europe CEN often translates these so you get EN ISO standards.

They also develop the European Norms I.e. EN standards but do not directly publish the document relying upon national organisations to adopt.

For the UK this is BSI so you will find references such as BS EN ISO or BS EN

CEN has a search facility to help identify what is current and what is about to change.

The best reference I have found is a subscription to BSOL but it is expensive if you are only after one or two standards a year. Usefully searching standards lets you know what is current, what is withdrawn and can be read in the subscription without downloading.
thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
ryangavin777 on 29/01/2017(UTC), ryangavin777 on 29/01/2017(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 29 January 2017 17:22:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

You have already found the definitive source for ISO standards.

In Europe CEN often translates these so you get EN ISO standards.

They also develop the European Norms I.e. EN standards but do not directly publish the document relying upon national organisations to adopt.

For the UK this is BSI so you will find references such as BS EN ISO or BS EN

CEN has a search facility to help identify what is current and what is about to change.

The best reference I have found is a subscription to BSOL but it is expensive if you are only after one or two standards a year. Usefully searching standards lets you know what is current, what is withdrawn and can be read in the subscription without downloading.
thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
ryangavin777 on 29/01/2017(UTC), ryangavin777 on 29/01/2017(UTC)
gerrysharpe  
#5 Posted : 29 January 2017 18:04:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gerrysharpe

I look after the CE Marking for a company i do the H&S for and I bought the relevant stands from https://www.en-standard.eu/

Having looked at the Prices from the BSI website, i couldn't believe just how much cheaper they were.

However you need to refer to the Ammendments in your own country 

thanks 1 user thanked gerrysharpe for this useful post.
ryangavin777 on 29/01/2017(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#6 Posted : 29 January 2017 18:07:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

As others have said, if your are employed, then it is for your employer to provided copies of EN standards if you need them.

It isn't usually necessary to obtain full copies of standards, if you refer to relevant HSE guidance, they usually highlight/draw on the key points of the relevant standards, no doubt you are aware that HSE guidance publications are free to download.

thanks 1 user thanked Ian Bell2 for this useful post.
ryangavin777 on 29/01/2017(UTC)
ryangavin777  
#7 Posted : 29 January 2017 18:13:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ryangavin777

Great - thanks everyone for your feedback. Appreciate it.

Cheers,

Ryan

paul.skyrme  
#8 Posted : 29 January 2017 21:58:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Just remember CE marking is to EN standards NOT BS EN standards...

Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 29 January 2017 22:27:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Seem to have lost my line breaks in the last post (again)

When you search the internet to find for example a renewal for your Driving Licence, passport or European Health Insurance Card unfortunately the first results are likely sponsored sites making money charging for what can often be free (or at much lower cost) from the official source. Problem is domain names can be registered by anyone so .EU is not necessarily an official web site of the European Union.

CE marking is an enactment of the european unions drive for free trade amongst all member states - affixing the CE mark declares product compliance with directive/regulation and harmonised standard and overcomes the previous barriers to trade where individual countries had their own unique and specific standards e.g. BS, DIN, NF, UNE, TS (although local publication of these harmonised standards is often preceeded by the national standards designation e.g. BS EN ISO 9001:2008)

The only example I have personally experienced contrary to this was way back at the introduction of the moving machinery directive where the customer insisted that state law took precedence to German federal law which itself was given precedence to the incoming EU directive. But at that time there weren't that many harmonsied standards for machinery.

The main country specific requirement from all such regulation and directive is that documentation SDS, instructions for use, declaration of performance or conformity must be issued in the language of the market country so that it is readily understood by those using the product.

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 29 January 2017 22:27:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Seem to have lost my line breaks in the last post (again)

When you search the internet to find for example a renewal for your Driving Licence, passport or European Health Insurance Card unfortunately the first results are likely sponsored sites making money charging for what can often be free (or at much lower cost) from the official source. Problem is domain names can be registered by anyone so .EU is not necessarily an official web site of the European Union.

CE marking is an enactment of the european unions drive for free trade amongst all member states - affixing the CE mark declares product compliance with directive/regulation and harmonised standard and overcomes the previous barriers to trade where individual countries had their own unique and specific standards e.g. BS, DIN, NF, UNE, TS (although local publication of these harmonised standards is often preceeded by the national standards designation e.g. BS EN ISO 9001:2008)

The only example I have personally experienced contrary to this was way back at the introduction of the moving machinery directive where the customer insisted that state law took precedence to German federal law which itself was given precedence to the incoming EU directive. But at that time there weren't that many harmonsied standards for machinery.

The main country specific requirement from all such regulation and directive is that documentation SDS, instructions for use, declaration of performance or conformity must be issued in the language of the market country so that it is readily understood by those using the product.

Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 29 January 2017 22:47:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: paul.skyrme Go to Quoted Post

Just remember CE marking is to EN standards NOT BS EN standards...


and the difference is?

Lets take Industrial Safety Helmets which are CE marked as meeting the requirements of - EN 397:2012+A1:2012

This European Standard specifies physical and performance requirements, methods of test and marking requirements for industrial safety helmets. The mandatory requirements apply to helmets for general use in industry. Industrial safety helmets are intended primarily to provide protection to the wearer against falling objects and consequential brain injury and skull fracture.

Published in the UK as BS EN 397:2012+A1:2012 or Germany as DIN EN 397 or France as NF EN 397+A1

The difference is that the BS EN front pages carry BSI Logo and information - after that it is the same CEN standard only in English language.

Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 29 January 2017 22:47:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: paul.skyrme Go to Quoted Post

Just remember CE marking is to EN standards NOT BS EN standards...


and the difference is?

Lets take Industrial Safety Helmets which are CE marked as meeting the requirements of - EN 397:2012+A1:2012

This European Standard specifies physical and performance requirements, methods of test and marking requirements for industrial safety helmets. The mandatory requirements apply to helmets for general use in industry. Industrial safety helmets are intended primarily to provide protection to the wearer against falling objects and consequential brain injury and skull fracture.

Published in the UK as BS EN 397:2012+A1:2012 or Germany as DIN EN 397 or France as NF EN 397+A1

The difference is that the BS EN front pages carry BSI Logo and information - after that it is the same CEN standard only in English language.

gerrysharpe  
#13 Posted : 30 January 2017 05:15:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gerrysharpe

Originally Posted by: paul.skyrme Go to Quoted Post

Just remember CE marking is to EN standards NOT BS EN standards...


Paul, I think you'll find the Harmonised standard in the UK is BS EN 1090-1:2009 +A1:2011 For CE marking of Structural Steelwork. 

The BS Just indicates the Auther of the standards in that particular Country,  But the Basic Standards which is the same for all countries without the country ammendmends is EN 1090-1

https://www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/our-services/product-certification/ce-mark/eu-directives/construction-products-regulation-cpr/en-1090-structural-steel/

Edited by user 30 January 2017 05:19:16(UTC)  | Reason: spelling

paul.skyrme  
#14 Posted : 30 January 2017 12:58:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Well, the difference between the BS EN & the EN is irrelevant really.

Remember there is no requirement to do anything to standards, as long as you can prove that what you are doing is just as safe.

To have a presumption of conformity, then one requires compliance with the harmonised standards as published in the official journal of the EU.

You won’t find any BS standards listed there.

As per the construction products directive harmonised standards as published in the official journal here:

Nothing else counts.

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/european-standards/harmonised-standards/construction-products_en

If you scroll down the list you will see that the BS standard is NOT listed only the EN standard.

It is the EN standard that you must quote on your DoC to comply with the CE marking directive.

The BS, DIN, etc. standards are not recognised.

Whether they are different or not makes no difference.

I would actually say that BSI page is not 100% correct, as it contradicts itself, because the standard that they quote at one point, is not listed in the official journal of the EU, the standard they state is based on the EN standard, but is not the EN standard.

They do also however, state the correct standard also.

So, the requirement under the Construction Products Directive is to CE mark to EN 1090 as amended.

NOT to BS EN 1090 as amended.

Subtle difference, but, it is a specific difference, that could result in illegal CE marking and an invalid DoC.

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gerrysharpe on 30/01/2017(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 30 January 2017 14:19:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

EU 305/2011 the Construction Products Regulation replaced 89/106/EEC the Construction Products Directive

UK S.I. 2013 No. 1387

Construction Products being placed upon the market where a harmonised european standard exist are required to have a Declaration of Performance before applying CE marking.

Testing to the essential requirements listed within the standard can be in-house, by external provider or a mixture - a list of NANDO (not the piri-piri kind) is maintained at

http://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/nando/index.cfm?fuseaction=directive.notifiedbody&dir_id=33

Declaration of Conformity applies under other directives and regulations e.g. Low Voltage, PPE, Simple Pressure Vessels, Machinery

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
gerrysharpe on 30/01/2017(UTC), gerrysharpe on 30/01/2017(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 30 January 2017 14:19:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

EU 305/2011 the Construction Products Regulation replaced 89/106/EEC the Construction Products Directive

UK S.I. 2013 No. 1387

Construction Products being placed upon the market where a harmonised european standard exist are required to have a Declaration of Performance before applying CE marking.

Testing to the essential requirements listed within the standard can be in-house, by external provider or a mixture - a list of NANDO (not the piri-piri kind) is maintained at

http://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/nando/index.cfm?fuseaction=directive.notifiedbody&dir_id=33

Declaration of Conformity applies under other directives and regulations e.g. Low Voltage, PPE, Simple Pressure Vessels, Machinery

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
gerrysharpe on 30/01/2017(UTC), gerrysharpe on 30/01/2017(UTC)
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