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Stig  
#1 Posted : 07 February 2017 11:21:25(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Stig

I am looking for information in relation to PAT on office equipment (PC's, printers etc).  On a previous CHAS accreditation the assessor asked for my PAT records on my office but I believe that offices are classed as low risk and do not require them.  I have been looking for any official conformation without success, has anyone come across this?

Thanks

Ian

Invictus  
#2 Posted : 07 February 2017 11:28:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

This is what you need it gives what timescales etc.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/indg236.pdf

Regards

HSSnail  
#3 Posted : 07 February 2017 13:44:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

While I agree totaly with Invictus - dont forget if you want external acreditation then you play by their rules even if they are over and above the minimal legal requirement/HSE advice. So as well as looking at the link you need to look at the details of the CHAS accreditation requirements.

john.ridley  
#4 Posted : 07 February 2017 13:46:23(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
john.ridley

This falls under the Electricity at Work Regulations and applies to all electrical equipment inc. equipment that has a plug and socket arrangement i.e. portable. The formal termonoligy is  'in-service inspection & testing of electrical equipment'.

The employer must be in a position to provide evidence that all electrical equipment has been 'maintained' in safe working order.  Fixed/hard wired electrical equipment shoud be inspected on a 5 year basis.

The HSE recommends that a competent person must inspect them regularly, but a 'competent' person does not have to be a full electrician, just someone who can do the tests and understand the results - nowadays the test equipment is fairly flawless.  It is down to the employer to detemine the regularity of the inspection and maintenance of the appliances and this would need to consider the environment that it is used in e.g. Offices perhaps 3 years, Garages perhaps 1 year, whatever you decide most appropriate.  In my experience of over 50 years, I find that most employers just decide to do it every year, just in case.

Hope this helps

John

john.ridley  
#5 Posted : 07 February 2017 13:50:27(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
john.ridley

This falls under the Electricity at Work Regulations and applies to all electrical equipment inc. equipment that has a plug and socket arrangement i.e. portable. The formal termonoligy is  'in-service inspection & testing of electrical equipment'.

The employer must be in a position to provide evidence that all electrical equipment has been 'maintained' in safe working order.  Fixed/hard wired electrical equipment shoud be inspected on a 5 year basis.

The HSE recommends that a competent person must inspect them regularly, but a 'competent' person does not have to be a full electrician, just someone who can do the tests and understand the results - nowadays the test equipment is fairly flawless.  It is down to the employer to detemine the regularity of the inspection and maintenance of the appliances and this would need to consider the environment that it is used in e.g. Offices perhaps 3 years, Garages perhaps 1 year, whatever you decide most appropriate.  In my experience of over 50 years, I find that most employers just decide to do it every year, just in case.

Hope this helps

John

Invictus  
#6 Posted : 07 February 2017 13:50:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: john.ridley Go to Quoted Post

This falls under the Electricity at Work Regulations and applies to all electrical equipment inc. equipment that has a plug and socket arrangement i.e. portable. The formal termonoligy is  'in-service inspection & testing of electrical equipment'.

The employer must be in a position to provide evidence that all electrical equipment has been 'maintained' in safe working order.  Fixed/hard wired electrical equipment shoud be inspected on a 5 year basis.

The HSE recommends that a competent person must inspect them regularly, but a 'competent' person does not have to be a full electrician, just someone who can do the tests and understand the results - nowadays the test equipment is fairly flawless.  It is down to the employer to detemine the regularity of the inspection and maintenance of the appliances and this would need to consider the environment that it is used in e.g. Offices perhaps 3 years, Garages perhaps 1 year, whatever you decide most appropriate.  In my experience of over 50 years, I find that most employers just decide to do it every year, just in case.

Hope this helps

John


Fixed/hard wired has nothing to do with PAT, you can complate visual unreciorded, vuisual recorded and use the guidance in the PAT document.

The problem is tghe people completing the audits don't understand as they believe that everything needs to be PAT tested annually.

Maybe you could be the 'critical friend' and show them the guidnce and prove that's what you comply too.

HSSnail  
#7 Posted : 07 February 2017 14:01:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

John

I think you will find you are refering to guidance (British Standard) and not regulation! Big difference.

However if you can show me the regulation/law i will accept i an wrong.

johnwatt  
#8 Posted : 07 February 2017 14:08:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

The definitive guide on PAT testing is the 'Code of practice for In-service Inspection and testing of electrical equipment' published by the IET.  ISBN: 978-1-84919-626-0

http://electrical.theiet.org/books/inspection-test/in-service-inspection-4th-ed.cfm

This guidance provides lots of information on how to comply with the electricity at work act with repect to portable appliance testing. 

There is no definitive guide on the frequency of inspection but the above guide details suggested initial frequencies which can be increased or reduced based on the findings of your inspections. Essentially the frequency should be defined though risk assessment. 

The HSE's INDG236 replicates this table of initial frequencies and also serves as a good guide. 

Clark34486  
#9 Posted : 07 February 2017 14:10:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clark34486

Not convoluted at all........

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg107.pdf



Office information technology rarely moved, eg desktop computers, photocopiers, fax machines




Formal visual inspection

Yes, 2–4 years

Combined test and inspection

No if double insulated, otherwise up to 5 years

johnwatt  
#10 Posted : 07 February 2017 14:18:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

John

I think you will find you are refering to guidance (British Standard) and not regulation! Big difference.

However if you can show me the regulation/law i will accept i an wrong.

Hi Brian, 

The regulation applicable to this is regulation 4 (2) of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 which states that "As may be necessary to prevent danger, all systems shall be maintained so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, such danger."

The IET's Code of Practice above is the accepted method of complying with this regulations and the one frequently cited by the HSE. 

John

Edited by user 07 February 2017 14:22:16(UTC)  | Reason: Typo that Clarke found! :-D

Clark34486  
#11 Posted : 07 February 2017 14:20:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clark34486

I was going to be ridiculously facetious and correct the year regarding EAW act 1989. then I thought better of it........

damn it!

thanks 1 user thanked Clark34486 for this useful post.
johnwatt on 07/02/2017(UTC)
HSSnail  
#12 Posted : 07 February 2017 14:26:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: johnwatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

John

I think you will find you are refering to guidance (British Standard) and not regulation! Big difference.

However if you can show me the regulation/law i will accept i an wrong.

Hi Brian, 

The regulation applicable to this is regulation 4 (2) of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 which states that "As may be necessary to prevent danger, all systems shall be maintained so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, such danger."

The IET's Code of Practice above is the accepted method of complying with this regulations and the one frequently cited by the HSE. 

John

So as I said John the Law state's maintain - the GUIDANCE is in the IET code of practice.

johnwatt  
#13 Posted : 07 February 2017 14:29:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

Originally Posted by: Clark34486 Go to Quoted Post

I was going to be ridiculously facetious and correct the year regarding EAW act 1989. then I thought better of it........

damn it!

Damn it, my perfect record...gone....

Thanks for the pointer ;)

johnwatt  
#14 Posted : 07 February 2017 14:37:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: johnwatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

John

I think you will find you are refering to guidance (British Standard) and not regulation! Big difference.

However if you can show me the regulation/law i will accept i an wrong.

Hi Brian, 

The regulation applicable to this is regulation 4 (2) of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 which states that "As may be necessary to prevent danger, all systems shall be maintained so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, such danger."

The IET's Code of Practice above is the accepted method of complying with this regulations and the one frequently cited by the HSE. 

John

So as I said John the Law state's maintain - the GUIDANCE is in the IET code of practice.


Indeed Brian. Its that age old argument about it being 'Only Guidance'. 

Here is what the HSE say on the matter:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/legislation/legal-status.htm

HSSnail  
#15 Posted : 07 February 2017 15:35:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

So as I said John the Law state's maintain - the GUIDANCE is in the IET code of practice.


Indeed Brian. Its that age old argument about it being 'Only Guidance'. 

Here is what the HSE say on the matter:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/legislation/legal-status.htm

Indeed John but this is not HSE guidance and its certainly on an ACOP as not created by HSE so has a different legal standing.

Dont get me wrong i agree with the good practice but we have to be clear that its not a legal requirement in the same way as for example  a 6 or 12 monthly thorough examination of lifting equiment would be as this is specified in the actual relevant regulations.

chris42  
#16 Posted : 07 February 2017 15:49:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

From HSE web site

Is Portable Appliance Testing (PAT) compulsory?

No. The law simply requires an employer to ensure that their electrical equipment is maintained in order to prevent danger. It does not say how this should be done or how often. Employers should take a risk-based approach, considering the type of equipment and what it is being used for. If it is used regularly and moved a lot e.g. a floor cleaner or a kettle, testing (along with visual checks) can be an important part of an effective maintenance regime giving employers confidence that they are doing what is necessary to help them meet their legal duties. HSE provides guidance on how to maintain equipment including the use of PAT.

On the other side of the coin I seem to recall a welsh school was burnt down due to a faulty fan ( but I can not find reference to it now). Anyway if you feel it is low risk then your RA covers that, and of course your employees never pull on cables or carry things with the plug buncing accross the floor, or trap the cables between desks, etc etc.

johnwatt  
#17 Posted : 07 February 2017 16:15:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

So as I said John the Law state's maintain - the GUIDANCE is in the IET code of practice.


Indeed Brian. Its that age old argument about it being 'Only Guidance'. 

Here is what the HSE say on the matter:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/legislation/legal-status.htm

Indeed John but this is not HSE guidance and its certainly on an ACOP as not created by HSE so has a different legal standing.

Dont get me wrong i agree with the good practice but we have to be clear that its not a legal requirement in the same way as for example  a 6 or 12 monthly thorough examination of lifting equiment would be as this is specified in the actual relevant regulations.


Completely understood Brian, though I'd add that the HSE's guidnance document HSG107 which is fomal HSE guidance replicates information from the IET guide and formally cites this as the source. 

Of the legal status of this guidance the HSE states "if you do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and may refer to this guidance."

Don't get me wrong i'd love to get rid of most PAT testing in our organisation as it is a huge burden and I personally feel delivers very little value. Hundreds of thousands of items tested annually with only a handful of failures. Then there is no added guarantee that we are testing all items as equipment go's in and out of our estate every day. 

The trouble is we work closely with our regulators and it has been made clear to us that this is a requirement. 

Striker84  
#18 Posted : 07 February 2017 20:16:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Striker84

I have learnt a lot from reading the former posts.

I know many large companies that operate on the following basis

EICR (electrical installation condition report) undertaken 5 yearly on sockets and other electrical installation in the property.
5 yearly PAT test on it equipment.
4 yearly PAT test on double insulated equipment (Power tools).
Annually on earthed appliances otherwise stated (microwaves, kettles, irons etc).

The above are simple guidelines within education that were offered up within the last few years eliminating what was recently annual PAT testing

Hope this helps and members please feel free to enlighten me if this is not the case. Thank you
HSSnail  
#19 Posted : 08 February 2017 08:44:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail


Don't get me wrong i'd love to get rid of most PAT testing in our organisation as it is a huge burden and I personally feel delivers very little value. Hundreds of thousands of items tested annually with only a handful of failures. Then there is no added guarantee that we are testing all items as equipment go's in and out of our estate every day. 

The trouble is we work closely with our regulators and it has been made clear to us that this is a requirement. 

John

Who is your regulator? I have worked in Health and Safety for over 30 years and have met hundreds of HSE and LA inspectors in that time. If any of them told you that Portable Appliance Testing in an office on an annula basis was a requirement they would be shot by their managers!

PAT should be carried out based on your risk assesment.

Bob Hansler  
#20 Posted : 08 February 2017 08:51:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Bob Hansler

One point folks.  If testing an accessory wired into a switched-fused-spur then the electrically skilled person will need to safely isolate, prove dead and lock-off the circuit.  It would be wise to test for the Zs of the circuit as well to ensure that the protective device will open circuit in the event of  a fault.

This falls outside the  area of a half trained P.A.T. expert.  For this try the word 'Electrican'. Best qulification for a person working at a P.A.T. level is the C & G 2377.  The full cert will cover testing and management.

Cheers

Rob.  (Send private for more information if required).

johnwatt  
#21 Posted : 08 February 2017 09:17:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

Don't get me wrong i'd love to get rid of most PAT testing in our organisation as it is a huge burden and I personally feel delivers very little value. Hundreds of thousands of items tested annually with only a handful of failures. Then there is no added guarantee that we are testing all items as equipment go's in and out of our estate every day. 

The trouble is we work closely with our regulators and it has been made clear to us that this is a requirement. 

John

Who is your regulator? I have worked in Health and Safety for over 30 years and have met hundreds of HSE and LA inspectors in that time. If any of them told you that Portable Appliance Testing in an office on an annula basis was a requirement they would be shot by their managers!

PAT should be carried out based on your risk assesment.

Hi Brian, 

We have in the past had HSE inspectors go through our practicies and procedures specifically EICR and PAT testing. But just to clarify I'd certainly not advocate not do we do annual testing in an office environment. We follow the guidance of the documents i've cited about. PAT testing in our offices is 2-4 years dependant upon risk assessment. 

Accomodation however is a different matter. The local authority demands annual PAT testing. We have been told for instance that this is a requirement of our HMO license. 

In summary my advice would always be to follow the formal guidance and that way we stay on the right side of the law. 

Regards, John

johnwatt  
#22 Posted : 08 February 2017 09:22:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

Originally Posted by: garyclarke84 Go to Quoted Post
I have learnt a lot from reading the former posts.

I know many large companies that operate on the following basis

EICR (electrical installation condition report) undertaken 5 yearly on sockets and other electrical installation in the property.
5 yearly PAT test on it equipment.
4 yearly PAT test on double insulated equipment (Power tools).
Annually on earthed appliances otherwise stated (microwaves, kettles, irons etc).

The above are simple guidelines within education that were offered up within the last few years eliminating what was recently annual PAT testing

Hope this helps and members please feel free to enlighten me if this is not the case. Thank you

The one point I'd caution here is power tools. These get used and abused, kicked around on the floor, thrown in the back of vans. It's one of the few example where i do feel that PAT testing is important. In terms of frequency i'd been looking at 6 months to a year dependant upon risk assessment. 

Just my opinion as an electrical engineer...

Invictus  
#23 Posted : 08 February 2017 10:16:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: Stig Go to Quoted Post

I am looking for information in relation to PAT on office equipment (PC's, printers etc).  On a previous CHAS accreditation the assessor asked for my PAT records on my office but I believe that offices are classed as low risk and do not require them.  I have been looking for any official conformation without success, has anyone come across this?

Thanks

Ian


Ian to answer your questions forget all about hard wired this and that, use indg263? and you won't go far wrong.

Sometimes people add to posts not to help but to show how much knowledge they have.

johnwatt  
#24 Posted : 08 February 2017 10:54:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

The OP asked for information and forum users had a discussion on the requirements. Your trolling is very unhelpful. 

For the OP, in summary:

INDG236 is the HSE's industry guidance note for 'Maintaining portable electric equipment in low-risk environments' This should provide the majority of the answers that you are looking for. 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/indg236.pdf

HSG 107 is their more formal health and safety guidance on PAT testing in general.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg107.htm

If you feel that these don't anwer all of your questions, the IET's Guide to In-Service Inspection and Testing of  Electrical  Equipment is considered by industry and the HSE to be the definitive guide.

http://electrical.theiet.org/books/inspection-test/in-service-inspection-4th-ed.cfm

The HSE also have a very useful Q&A secoin on their website. 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

To the OP, I hope you find this useful and don't take this as "showing how much knowledge they have." Any more question please feel free to ask. This forum is usually a friendly place. Others get bored sometimes...

Edited by user 08 February 2017 10:55:25(UTC)  | Reason: omission

Invictus  
#25 Posted : 08 February 2017 13:43:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

The pater asked a specific question I answered with the relevant guide ce how is that trolling
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