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Paul T  
#1 Posted : 22 June 2016 16:11:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul T

Could someone share their experience of best practice concerning the wearing of Fall Arrest for a sign installation about 30ft in the air, i know for a boom MEWP its yes and IPAF guidance is to wear dependent on the level of risk. Is their anything difinitive Thank you P
DaveBridle  
#2 Posted : 22 June 2016 16:38:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaveBridle

Working at Height Regulations ....
boblewis  
#3 Posted : 22 June 2016 18:59:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

I presume you are asking abou the use of scissor lifts and the need for fall arrest during sign erection. The answer is "why on earth would you need to if you use in accordance with manufacturers instructions" Boom lifts are a definite YES but not so for scissor lifts.
paul.skyrme  
#4 Posted : 22 June 2016 19:53:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Lets get a few facts sorted here. 1. You NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER (get it) wear fall arrest equipment in a scissor or boom lift. (That’s a full stop in the sentence above, get it!) 2. You never wear fall restraint equipment in a scissor lift. (Full stop again) 3. You always wear suitable fall restraint equipment in a boom lift. (Full stop again) How do I know, an IPAF centre taught me on my renewal a couple of months ago, & I use them regularly. If you are intending to use fall arrest, then you need an anchor point that will carry the load of the arrest close to where the user is, thus, you need an anchor point capable of carrying the load applied when arresting the fall of the user wearing the arrest device. Work that out for a 100kg person. I have never yet seen a boom that will carry such a load. Good luck finding a boom that will take that sort of load at max reach, if the user is far enough off the floor, so that the harness deploys correctly, then it will probably simply pull the boom over, possibly on top of the faller, or others in the area. The next issue is that you need an automatically variable fall arrest device that is linked to the height of the basket from the “floor”, so as the operator lifts the boom the harness knows how high the boom is off the floor to ensure that it doesn’t over deploy, and allow the user to hit the floor before the main section has deployed and the shock absorbing section comes into play. Good luck buying one of them. I think that some people need to go on an IPAF users course, or a MEWPS for managers course pretty quick! The ONLY commonly recognised time that you would not wear fall restraint equipment in a boom MEWP is close to or over water where the machine could conceivably tip into the water, then you would be wearing a buoyancy aid and the fall restraint device, and it would be down to the operator/the SSW to decide at which point the fall restraint is detached from the boom, you don’t want to be clipped to 15t of metal if it falls into a body of water!
bigpub  
#5 Posted : 23 June 2016 10:35:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bigpub

What does the RA state?
Invictus  
#6 Posted : 23 June 2016 11:13:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

paul.skyrme wrote:
Lets get a few facts sorted here. 1. You NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER (get it) wear fall arrest equipment in a scissor or boom lift. (That’s a full stop in the sentence above, get it!) 2. You never wear fall restraint equipment in a scissor lift. (Full stop again) 3. You always wear suitable fall restraint equipment in a boom lift. (Full stop again) How do I know, an IPAF centre taught me on my renewal a couple of months ago, & I use them regularly. If you are intending to use fall arrest, then you need an anchor point that will carry the load of the arrest close to where the user is, thus, you need an anchor point capable of carrying the load applied when arresting the fall of the user wearing the arrest device. Work that out for a 100kg person. I have never yet seen a boom that will carry such a load. Good luck finding a boom that will take that sort of load at max reach, if the user is far enough off the floor, so that the harness deploys correctly, then it will probably simply pull the boom over, possibly on top of the faller, or others in the area. The next issue is that you need an automatically variable fall arrest device that is linked to the height of the basket from the “floor”, so as the operator lifts the boom the harness knows how high the boom is off the floor to ensure that it doesn’t over deploy, and allow the user to hit the floor before the main section has deployed and the shock absorbing section comes into play. Good luck buying one of them. I think that some people need to go on an IPAF users course, or a MEWPS for managers course pretty quick! The ONLY commonly recognised time that you would not wear fall restraint equipment in a boom MEWP is close to or over water where the machine could conceivably tip into the water, then you would be wearing a buoyancy aid and the fall restraint device, and it would be down to the operator/the SSW to decide at which point the fall restraint is detached from the boom, you don’t want to be clipped to 15t of metal if it falls into a body of water!
Youve never seen a boom that will take a 100k person, they can take up to 272k and probably more, depending on the MEWP.You should use a harness and not fall arrest system in a MEWP even with a boom. it is not a requirement wear anything in a scissor lift. Try here for more information, also look at the rogues gallery where two people are in the basket and they are rogues because they are not wearing harnesses.
Mr.Flibble2.0  
#7 Posted : 23 June 2016 11:34:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

Some scissor lifts do come with anchor points but the argument normally would be whats the difference between a scissor lift and a scaffold tower when working at height. I know a previous company I worked for insisted that they be worn in the scissor lift when carrying out stock retrieval from racking as the temptation could be to lean out into the racking.
JohnW  
#8 Posted : 23 June 2016 12:07:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

I've read guidance which says wear a lanyard/harness IF there may be a need to 'lean over' the basket guard-rail, a scenario might be when stock-taking and reading product labels. I have day off tomorrow I'm sure I can find the reference and post something on this thread. JohnW
JohnW  
#9 Posted : 23 June 2016 12:13:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

For starters: didn't take long for me to find this from IPAF: Technical Guidance Note H1/05/05. Includes:
Quote:
Vertical Lifts It is not normally necessary for personnel working from a vertical lift to wear fall protection equipment, other than in exceptional circumstances. This would include: Scissor Lifts (SL) and Vertical Personnel Platforms (VPP). The need for a fall protection system will be the outcome of a job specific risk assessment undertaken prior to work commencing and taking into consideration the manufacturer’s operators’ manual.
JohnW
Xavier123  
#10 Posted : 23 June 2016 12:19:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

After falling, and accelerating, 5-6 m a 100kg man/woman will exert an impact force of around 5kN. Equivalent to 500kg. A sudden 500kg dynamic load imposed via a lanyard off the side of a boom on full extension does rather sound like the sort of 'fun' thing that leads to trouble. Hence the appropriate comments about not wearing fall arrest for this sort of work...it generally doesn't give you the security you think it should. Prevent the fall.
thanks 1 user thanked Xavier123 for this useful post.
supecarman on 08/02/2017(UTC)
Invictus  
#11 Posted : 23 June 2016 12:23:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

JohnW wrote:
I've read guidance which says wear a lanyard/harness IF there may be a need to 'lean over' the basket guard-rail, a scenario might be when stock-taking and reading product labels. I have day off tomorrow I'm sure I can find the reference and post something on this thread. JohnW
Ok say you wear a landyard, then you need to ensure that the landyard will only drop you a distance plus your own height before you hit the floor. The reason you don't wear a landyard is that the scissor lift/MEWP move up and down and a landyard does not adjust likt that, it is a fixed length. You wear a harness in the MEWP because that will stop you falling out of the basket if it becomes unstable for a reason i.e. hit by moving vehicle. The reason you don't wear them in the scissor lift is that you normally walk along the platform and they can become a trip hazard.
paul.skyrme  
#12 Posted : 23 June 2016 12:52:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Invictus wrote:
paul.skyrme wrote:
Lets get a few facts sorted here. 1. You NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER (get it) wear fall arrest equipment in a scissor or boom lift. (That’s a full stop in the sentence above, get it!) 2. You never wear fall restraint equipment in a scissor lift. (Full stop again) 3. You always wear suitable fall restraint equipment in a boom lift. (Full stop again) How do I know, an IPAF centre taught me on my renewal a couple of months ago, & I use them regularly. If you are intending to use fall arrest, then you need an anchor point that will carry the load of the arrest close to where the user is, thus, you need an anchor point capable of carrying the load applied when arresting the fall of the user wearing the arrest device. Work that out for a 100kg person. I have never yet seen a boom that will carry such a load. Good luck finding a boom that will take that sort of load at max reach, if the user is far enough off the floor, so that the harness deploys correctly, then it will probably simply pull the boom over, possibly on top of the faller, or others in the area. The next issue is that you need an automatically variable fall arrest device that is linked to the height of the basket from the “floor”, so as the operator lifts the boom the harness knows how high the boom is off the floor to ensure that it doesn’t over deploy, and allow the user to hit the floor before the main section has deployed and the shock absorbing section comes into play. Good luck buying one of them. I think that some people need to go on an IPAF users course, or a MEWPS for managers course pretty quick! The ONLY commonly recognised time that you would not wear fall restraint equipment in a boom MEWP is close to or over water where the machine could conceivably tip into the water, then you would be wearing a buoyancy aid and the fall restraint device, and it would be down to the operator/the SSW to decide at which point the fall restraint is detached from the boom, you don’t want to be clipped to 15t of metal if it falls into a body of water!
Youve never seen a boom that will take a 100k person, they can take up to 272k and probably more, depending on the MEWP.You should use a harness and not fall arrest system in a MEWP even with a boom. it is not a requirement wear anything in a scissor lift. Try here for more information, also look at the rogues gallery where two people are in the basket and they are rogues because they are not wearing harnesses.
If, you read my post again, I'm sure that you will realise your mistake. I will repeat the statement that you misinterpreted in a slightly different way. I have yet to see a boom that whem at full extent will provide fall arrest for a 100kg person. Your 2xx kg working load is totally irrelevant. As has been suggested above, it's not the static load we are concerned with regarding fall arrest, it's the dynamic load of the fall arrest system. That will most likely overtun the boom, and also the manufacturer of the boom will not rate the attachment points for arrest, only restraint.
Invictus  
#13 Posted : 23 June 2016 13:33:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

paul.skyrme wrote:
Invictus wrote:
paul.skyrme wrote:
Lets get a few facts sorted here. 1. You NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER (get it) wear fall arrest equipment in a scissor or boom lift. (That’s a full stop in the sentence above, get it!) 2. You never wear fall restraint equipment in a scissor lift. (Full stop again) 3. You always wear suitable fall restraint equipment in a boom lift. (Full stop again) How do I know, an IPAF centre taught me on my renewal a couple of months ago, & I use them regularly. If you are intending to use fall arrest, then you need an anchor point that will carry the load of the arrest close to where the user is, thus, you need an anchor point capable of carrying the load applied when arresting the fall of the user wearing the arrest device. Work that out for a 100kg person. I have never yet seen a boom that will carry such a load. Good luck finding a boom that will take that sort of load at max reach, if the user is far enough off the floor, so that the harness deploys correctly, then it will probably simply pull the boom over, possibly on top of the faller, or others in the area. The next issue is that you need an automatically variable fall arrest device that is linked to the height of the basket from the “floor”, so as the operator lifts the boom the harness knows how high the boom is off the floor to ensure that it doesn’t over deploy, and allow the user to hit the floor before the main section has deployed and the shock absorbing section comes into play. Good luck buying one of them. I think that some people need to go on an IPAF users course, or a MEWPS for managers course pretty quick! The ONLY commonly recognised time that you would not wear fall restraint equipment in a boom MEWP is close to or over water where the machine could conceivably tip into the water, then you would be wearing a buoyancy aid and the fall restraint device, and it would be down to the operator/the SSW to decide at which point the fall restraint is detached from the boom, you don’t want to be clipped to 15t of metal if it falls into a body of water!
Youve never seen a boom that will take a 100k person, they can take up to 272k and probably more, depending on the MEWP.You should use a harness and not fall arrest system in a MEWP even with a boom. it is not a requirement wear anything in a scissor lift. Try here for more information, also look at the rogues gallery where two people are in the basket and they are rogues because they are not wearing harnesses.
If, you read my post again, I'm sure that you will realise your mistake. I will repeat the statement that you misinterpreted in a slightly different way. I have yet to see a boom that whem at full extent will provide fall arrest for a 100kg person. Your 2xx kg working load is totally irrelevant. As has been suggested above, it's not the static load we are concerned with regarding fall arrest, it's the dynamic load of the fall arrest system. That will most likely overtun the boom, and also the manufacturer of the boom will not rate the attachment points for arrest, only restraint.
No it's not because that is the weight that the MEWP will take so two persons at least and you should always wear a harness.
PIKEMAN  
#14 Posted : 23 June 2016 14:18:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

As above it's all about the shock loading, not the static load. We have all seen videos where muppets attempt to snatch lift or snatch tow an object which is well within the SWL and yet the rope snaps - and they look puzzled! Get a large weight eg 1kg and tie some cotton on and lift it slowly - fine. Then pull sharply and it snaps. This is why you don;t use fall arrest in MEPS, but do use fall restraint.
Invictus  
#15 Posted : 23 June 2016 15:01:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Paul, It would shock a lot of people if you are saying that when the boom is at full reach, if a person of 100k fell out they would tip the MEWP over, or im getting the total end of the stick. Anyway going to Tenerife tomorrow so I will not think about health and safety, fire safety or anything else, the only safety I will think about is remebering what way to walk back the hotel with a belly full of ale. Tata.
paul.skyrme  
#16 Posted : 23 June 2016 19:04:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Well HSE warn that arresting a fall could be enough to overturn a MEWP. Look at the forces involved. A boom type MEWP is not a crane, it is designed to take passive and static loads, not dynamic loads which are rapidly changing, the acceleration and jerk on the boom would be massive. The anchor point if used for fall arrest, MUST be tested to the requirements of BS EN 795, you’ll be lucky to find a boom manufacturer that will certify their boom PPE attachment points to that. If you have a fully loaded boom, out at full stretch, and a guy falls out, using fall arrest gear, then yes, there is a very good chance you will turn the boom over, especially when you look at the allowable lateral forces on the basket combined with the static load. The dynamics are horrendous. The forces have the potential to be quite large. OK, the arrest is supposed, to reduce the jerk on the body, but, you will have the sideways non-design force, the pendulum effect on the basket of the suspended casualty, all of which are non-design loads on the MEWP. So, yes I am still saying that there is a chance of overturning a boom using fall arrest equipment. Hence why ONLY fall restraint equipment should be used, to prevent the person being ejected from the basket in the first place. That way the forces are limited, the body can only accelerate from a standstill to a very limited velocity when restrained in the basket, thus the applied forces are reduced, and tend to be in the plane of basket movement, i.e. within the envelope of design forces considered for the platform. Now if you do use fall restraint and you lose a body overboard and the “overweight” alarm triggers, or the tilt alarm, can this be reset from the ground, or basket? Then you are into a rescue, noting that you are not allowed to rely on the emergency services. If you had used the right kit, i.e. fall prevention, i.e restraint, not arrest, then you would never get into that scenario.
thanks 1 user thanked paul.skyrme for this useful post.
gerrysharpe on 08/02/2017(UTC)
Xavier123  
#17 Posted : 24 June 2016 10:51:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

Invictus The critical difference is that hanging 100kg off the side of a boom is one thing, dropping it off on a 5m rope is another. The force isn't 100kg regardless, the latter has the addition of acceleration over the distance fallen. Its not a straightforward calculation since a fall arrest bit of kit is designed to slow and reduce that impact hit. However, it will definitely add a significant additional force taking that static 100kg much, much higher. You can probably hold a 20kg weight that I pass you nicely. How about catching it when I drop it from 5m above you? It's the same weight but I rather suspect you'd be less keen on the latter.
RayRapp  
#18 Posted : 24 June 2016 10:59:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Not read all the comments so apologies if this has been raised, but it's my understanding a harness is not normally needed in a scissor lift, only a cherry picker type MEWP.
JohnW  
#19 Posted : 24 June 2016 12:08:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Right, but I posted this above, from IPAF: Technical Guidance Note H1/05/05. Includes:
Quote:
Vertical Lifts It is not normally necessary for personnel working from a vertical lift to wear fall protection equipment, other than in exceptional circumstances. This would include: Scissor Lifts (SL) and Vertical Personnel Platforms (VPP). The need for a fall protection system will be the outcome of a job specific risk assessment undertaken prior to work commencing and taking into consideration the manufacturer’s operators’ manual.
Other posts above are explaining the physics of an arrested fall from a scissor lift, may pose a real risk. Wearing harness in scissor lift should not mean employee can climb on the cage to lean/stretch out. JohnW
Bigmac1  
#20 Posted : 24 June 2016 12:12:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

Prevent a fall, fall restraint only, just forget anything about fall arrest please before I go insane.
Juan Carlos Arias  
#21 Posted : 24 June 2016 12:27:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Juan Carlos Arias

I think some people here are misinterpreting what other say. You don't use fall arrest in either cherry pickers nor scissor lifts! you use ONLY fall restrain. The use of fall restrain on scissor lifts is dependant on RA, normally is not necessary. The use on cherry pickers is a MUST, and it is merely to prevent the person being catapulted out by the cherry picker should something go wrong. I agree with what someone above has said, that I am yet to see any MEWP that will safely withstand the forces of a fall arrest and I truly believe that it would have the potential to tip the equipment over. But if you use fall restrain... where is the problem?
JohnW  
#22 Posted : 24 June 2016 14:01:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Bigmac and Juan, Yes sorry at the end of my message I should have said, further, employee wearing harness does not mean he can climb/lean out so the lanyard should be length for restraint only. JohnW
supecarman  
#23 Posted : 08 February 2017 10:33:11(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
supecarman

Working with scissor lifts with no guard bars is really dangerous. Before going with such option if possible, refer the local laws and operator manuals. The real purpose of Scissor lifts is for lifting payloads. The primary purpose of boom MEWP is for elevated inspections. Check this scissor lift FAQs for more details.

Roundtuit  
#24 Posted : 08 February 2017 11:08:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: supecarman Go to Quoted Post

Working with scissor lifts with no guard bars is really dangerous. Before going with such option if possible, refer the local laws and operator manuals. The real purpose of Scissor lifts is for lifting payloads. The primary purpose of boom MEWP is for elevated inspections. Check this scissor lift FAQs for more details.

In most forum topics we are discussing application of H&S in the UK unless the OP specifically states a location - links to a US web site are miss-leading and potentially contrary to UK requirements

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
gerrysharpe on 08/02/2017(UTC), gerrysharpe on 08/02/2017(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#25 Posted : 08 February 2017 11:08:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: supecarman Go to Quoted Post

Working with scissor lifts with no guard bars is really dangerous. Before going with such option if possible, refer the local laws and operator manuals. The real purpose of Scissor lifts is for lifting payloads. The primary purpose of boom MEWP is for elevated inspections. Check this scissor lift FAQs for more details.

In most forum topics we are discussing application of H&S in the UK unless the OP specifically states a location - links to a US web site are miss-leading and potentially contrary to UK requirements

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
gerrysharpe on 08/02/2017(UTC), gerrysharpe on 08/02/2017(UTC)
Brian Campbell  
#26 Posted : 08 February 2017 14:58:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Brian Campbell

Scissor lifts: Harness should be worn if traversing the machine, not neccessary if just for the up and down movement.  

Boom lifts: Harness shall be worn at all times.

Harnesses with lanyards are primarily for self rescue should the operater be catapulted from the basket, therefore allowing them to re-enter the basket.

Fall arresters will not work if at a lower level.

chris42  
#27 Posted : 08 February 2017 15:06:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

The fixed lanyard should be short enough to prevent you leaving the basket. If you are over the side of the basket then it is likely to fall over.

jontyjohnston  
#28 Posted : 08 February 2017 16:44:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jontyjohnston

Folks

No need to get overly technical with this. Normally vertical platforms do not require and restraint as they tend to be used on flat even ground. That said you should never use any form arrest system in a MEWP. Any proprietry arrest system is based on the premise that it arrests the users fall. It has to deploy to do this. Depending on the type the deployment can take up to 4.2 meters.

Question - what height can you be up in the air in a MEWP?

paul.skyrme  
#29 Posted : 08 February 2017 20:11:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Originally Posted by: Brian Campbell Go to Quoted Post
<p>Scissor lifts: Harness should be worn if traversing the machine, not neccessary if just for the up and down movement. &nbsp;</p><p>Boom lifts: Harness shall&nbsp;be worn at all times.</p><p>Harnesses with lanyards are primarily for self rescue should the operater be catapulted from the basket, therefore allowing them to re-enter the basket.</p><p>Fall arresters will not work if at a lower level.</p>
Here we go again... Scissor, no harness end of according to IPAF, if you don't like it, take it up with IPAF they should know what they are doing. Even fall restraint harnesses require a suitably rated anchor point which is not designed into scissor lifts, pkus tbey are not designed to take the dynamic load of an attached harness. Don't lime it? Go to the OEM's & their trade body.

Edited by user 08 February 2017 20:17:59(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

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