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E/LIGHTING - LEGAL OBLIGATIONS - Advice Needed
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Anneliese1973  
#1 Posted : 09 February 2017 16:21:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Anneliese1973

I'm looking for some advice - I have just completed a FRA for our new (leased) Showroom.

The Showroom is based over 2 floors, within part of a bigger office block.  We occupy the main street level which is fully glass fronted onto the street and then theres some steps downstairs to a basement showroom level.  Its not a big site, both rooms are about 70m sq. We have fire exits for both floors.

My question is regards emergency lighting - There is minimal natural lighting coming into the basement from the street level and we dont have any e/lighting down there.  My concern is that we have a lot of clients/visitors and they are unfamiliar with the layout.  Added to that the fact theres minimal natural light and finally we are having increased events in the showroom on an evening.

I have raised that theres a requirement for e/lighting in my FRA, but my Employer is resisting the cost as we would need to remove everything when we eventually leave the premises.  He feels that we dont need to do it

I feel frustrated as I feel that legally & morally, we have a responsibility to make sure people can safely exit our building in the event of power failure/fire.

Would we be in trouble if we were to be inspected by the HSE/Local FA? - Is it viable for a company to decide not to provide E/L due to cost etc?

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johnwatt  
#2 Posted : 09 February 2017 16:50:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

This is absoloutly a legal requirement. The legislation uses the term *must*, this mean just that, cost does not enter the equation. 

The relevant legistlation is the 'The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005'. Regulations 14 details the requirements:

Emergency routes and exits

14.—(1) Where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that routes to emergency exits from premises and the exits themselves are kept clear at all times.

(2) The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons—

(a)emergency routes and exits must lead as directly as possible to a place of safety;

(b)in the event of danger, it must be possible for persons to evacuate the premises as quickly and as safely as possible;

(c)the number, distribution and dimensions of emergency routes and exits must be adequate having regard to the use, equipment and dimensions of the premises and the maximum number of persons who may be present there at any one time;

(d)emergency doors must open in the direction of escape;

(e)sliding or revolving doors must not be used for exits specifically intended as emergency exits;

(f)emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by any person who may require to use them in an emergency;

(g)emergency routes and exits *must* be indicated by signs; and

(h)emergency routes and exits requiring illumination *must* be provided with emergency lighting of adequate intensity in the case of failure of their normal lighting.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/article/14/made

  • BS 5266-1:2016  The 'Emergency lighting. Code of practice for the emergency lighting of premises' details the specific requirements.

Regulation 25 details who the enforcing authority is, most likely in your case this will be your local fire authority. Regulation 32 details the the potential fines and scentences. Failure to comply with the above could leave you with 

(3) Any person guilty of an offence under paragraph (1)(a) to (d) and (2)(h) is liable—

  • (a)on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum; or
  • (b)on conviction on indictment, to a fine, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or to both.

Edited by user 09 February 2017 17:21:01(UTC)  | Reason: additional info
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Anneliese1973 on 09/02/2017(UTC)
aud  
#3 Posted : 09 February 2017 17:01:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

Self contained EL units are available, as there are some in the (leased) premises I know. They do have to be fixed to the wall, but can be removed and taken to the next premises (as this owner is about to do).
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Anneliese1973 on 09/02/2017(UTC)
johnwatt  
#4 Posted : 09 February 2017 17:13:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt
Originally Posted by: aud Go to Quoted Post

Self contained EL units are available, as there are some in the (leased) premises I know. They do have to be fixed to the wall, but can be removed and taken to the next premises (as this owner is about to do).

This is true but they do still need to be wired into to the normal lighting supply, so it's not just a case of sticking the fitting on the wall. The emergency light fitting needs to be activated automatically in the event of failure of the supply to the normal lighting. The only way to do this is to wire them into the the supply of that lighting circuit. 

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Anneliese1973 on 09/02/2017(UTC)
Stuart Smiles  
#5 Posted : 13 February 2017 22:47:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stuart Smiles
Option 1 Take the director to the local electrical retailers or give them a screwfix catalogue with 12 quid a unit written on it Option 2 put a jar on his desk for a swear box. £2 a go, should have sufficient for installation within 2 weeks. Get LED ones as they save electric and are bright and cheaper than batteries for old style ones. Job done.
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johnwatt  
#6 Posted : 14 February 2017 12:16:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

Originally Posted by: Stuart Smiles Go to Quoted Post
Option 1 Take the director to the local electrical retailers or give them a screwfix catalogue with 12 quid a unit written on it Option 2 put a jar on his desk for a swear box. £2 a go, should have sufficient for installation within 2 weeks. Get LED ones as they save electric and are bright and cheaper than batteries for old style ones. Job done.

The units themself can be procured cheaply but its important to put forward a realistic cost for this. The system will need to be installed by an approved electrician with experience in emergency lighting and they must be capable of commisioning and certifying the system to BS 5266.

It's likely the cost will be in the latter. Don't get me wrong this shouldn't be substantial but lets be clear its not just the cost of the fittings. 

Regardless it's a stautory duty...
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Peterhigton  
#7 Posted : 14 February 2017 12:21:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Peterhigton

I would agree with John here - from what i can remember i would say that emergency lighting falls down as an "absolute duty" (as opposed to practicable or reasonably practicable), that is to say that the employer must provide this irrespective of time, trouble and cost.

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Ian Bell2  
#8 Posted : 14 February 2017 12:47:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

I think you are missing the later wording...

The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons—

Surely if a FRA considers emergency lighting isn't necessary, due to sufficient natural lighting/external lighting - then is not an absolute duty - as the 'must' is qualified by 'where necessary'.

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johnwatt  
#9 Posted : 14 February 2017 12:52:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt
Originally Posted by: Ian Bell2 Go to Quoted Post

I think you are missing the later wording...

The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons—

Surely if a FRA considers emergency lighting isn't necessary, due to sufficient natural lighting/external lighting - then is not an absolute duty - as the 'must' is qualified by 'where necessary'.

Yes, and the OP has already stated that it is in a basement and that there is, I quote, "minimal natural light" and "increased events in the showroom on an evening". The OP also stated that they noted this requirement in the FRA.

Which point was missed?

Edited by user 14 February 2017 12:53:36(UTC)  | Reason: typo
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Stuart Smiles  
#10 Posted : 14 February 2017 13:16:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stuart Smiles

"The units themself can be procured cheaply but its important to put forward a realistic cost for this. The system will need to be installed by an approved electrician with experience in emergency lighting and they must be capable of commisioning and certifying the system to BS 5266.

It's likely the cost will be in the latter. Don't get me wrong this shouldn't be substantial but lets be clear its not just the cost of the fittings." 

Regardless it's a stautory duty...

Agree, my point was that the fittings and electrician shouldn't be that expensive, and as such, acceptance that it was something they may want to do could be a relatively easy win, given that although electricians can cost fortunes, the task shouldn't be overly arduous, it's a question of desire.

we have had similar discussions on the extent of how far to go with emergency lighting and it does add up, however a phased/prioritised approach could help. 

it also puts it in the category of do I want to have an arguement about this or spend time on it/are other things more important? - what are triggers to get to just do it please? and indicating that a reminder about it could help.

It seems both sides are stuck. I was proposing a way to get a discussion going towards how can we get this to work with someone who perhaps needs to reflect on the issue in order to get to a yes, (as I generally would).

getting the relevant guidance out for a discussion may also help. and discussion of why/what the barriers are to getting it to a yes, perhaps a discussion in collaboration with the landlord as the em lights could be transferred over to them when the garage moves so they aren't paying to put in and paying to take out, (or it could be retesting of whole fixed wiring because they haven't been done for ages, (again free maintenance issue with landlord) that will probably be best solved with a chat and a beer/wine, (or providing fittings for them to have wired in & associated contribution for electrician's time)?

The issue doesn't seem to be the lights as such, and by providing a method to get them you would trigger a discussion on the underlying issues and timing associated (which may be excluded from), but at least it's a start towards trying to resolve the issue, which seemed to be where it was actually trying to get to rather than just stating "there's a duty must do x". seems the why's and how's could to be explored further.

only an opinion. 

 
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Ian Bell2  
#11 Posted : 14 February 2017 13:58:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

I was responding to #7

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