Can you clarify, are we talking two seperate construction projects within the warehouse?

CDM 2015 reg 5 says: 

5.—(1) Where there is more than one contractor, or if it is reasonably foreseeable that more than one contractor will be working on a project at any time, the client must appoint in writing—

(a)a designer with control over the pre-construction phase as principal designer; and

(b)a contractor as principal contractor.

 One PC per construction project, I'd be very concerned if I had a consultant on one of my projects tell me this. 

I believe you can have two PCs working on the same project on the proviso they are separated by time or distance. The real question is why you need two PCs? Could one not be the PC and the other just a contractor or  main contractor.

Where does it state that two or more PCs cannot work on the same project?

Originally Posted by: RayRapp

I believe you can have two PCs working on the same project on the proviso they are separated by time or distance. The real question is why you need two PCs? Could one not be the PC and the other just a contractor or  main contractor.

As well as separation by time & distance (or do you mean by 'distance' - sites that are physically barried off from each other?

Additionally I would think there would need to be clearly different financial budgets for each project to show that the projects truly were separate.

Don't see how you arrive at the conclusion that there can be 2 PCs on a contract - CDM2015 is quite clear on this issue - one PC per project - as pointed out Reg 5.

I have worked on many schemes as CDMC and PD where we had two principal contractors. In fact the biggest precendence I can think of in my own work experience for this was on the Olympic Park, although under the old regs, the approach was well known by the HSE down there. 

Also consider when building a shopping centre, such as westfield, I was working on two shop fit outs, which had their own PCs and the overall main shopping centre was being controlled by the "main" PC. 

I see no reason why having two PCs is an issue and this is certainly not the first time it would have been done. 

With that said, the big question remains is why? All desicions need to be made to promote safety as the number one priority, without knowing the ins and outs of the project it's hard to judge whether two PCs is the correct approach in this case or whether it provides uneccessary complication. 

Originally Posted by: RayRapp

Regulation 5. -(1) does not state you cannot have more than one PC working on a project.

Indeed, upon checking the CDM guidance (L153) I found this little ditty:

117 There may be occasions where two or more projects are taking place on the same site at the same time, but are run independently of one another. Whatever the circumstances, it is essential that there is clarity over who is in control during the construction phase in any part of the site at any given time. Where it is not possible for one principal contractor to be in overall control, those principal contractors involved must:

(a) cooperate with one another;

(b) coordinate their work; and

(c) take account of any shared interfaces between the activities of each project (eg shared traffic routes).

I rest my case.

That paragraph clearly states "where two or more projects are taking place on the same site" The OP has already said it is one project. One project one PC. Two projects two PC's (but taking the neccesary precautions).

Re reg 5 it states 'A' (singular) contractor (singular) then there is the very definition of the word principal? 

Originally Posted by: RayRapp

john, with respect youare not reading the guidance properly - see below the definitive point and my bold lettering, it is plural not singular.

Where it is not possible for one principal contractor to be in overall control, those principal contractors involved must:

(a) cooperate with one another;

(b) coordinate their work; and

(c) take account of any shared interfaces between the activities of each project (eg shared traffic).

All healthy disucussion Ray, no issue with this. Its an interesting point. 

I'd disagree, this preceding sentence is qualified by the proviso that this is applicable where there is two seperate projects. 

Maybe part of the problem is sloppy writing in the CDM L153 guidance.

Even with the plural 'principal contractors' each PC is only responsible for 1 project.

Then back to (a), (b), (c)

Originally Posted by: alan w houghton

Hello eveyone

Quick question my client has asked me if he can have two Principal Contractors on his warehouse at the same time

As they will both need to work inconjunction with each other I said no one needs to be Principal Contractor for the one client.

He has stated a consultant has told me he can - I would like others opinions in this matter please as I thought I was right however I may be wrong and only want to give the right advice tio my client

Thanks

They are either working independently, or they are working in conjunction with one another; in which case I would say no, I think when push-comes-to-shove you would have to justify very strongly why the site could not be run with one overarching PC. I would imagine that this would also create a greater cost for the project so could only imagine that there would need to be a very strong reason to do this.

Originally Posted by: Curious1

A few years ago I was working in a large car manufacturers.

There were three notifiable independent projects running simultaneously within 400metres, all under the same roof.

There were three PC's and  one CDM.C. as it then was.

Same scenario here with the PC's, three independant projects so allowable. Would it not have been the case that each of the three projects had nominated the same CDMC?

Firstly, I admit I not up on CDM as much as others, as I don’t have any real involvement (generally). However, I take an interest in the posts and try and understand the issues.

Please correct this if I am wrong, but I thought previous threads stated there was only room on the F10 for one PC !  (I have never completed one of these, so don’t know from experience).

Also, if the client does not appoint a PC (so by default takes on the duty themselves) they could effectively get the two “contractors” to actually provide all that is necessary for them to fulfil this role (couldn’t they), so they are PC in name only (the other two do all the work). Or is there a downside to this?

So is the answer to the OP =Yes you can or No you can not ?

Chris

Hi I'm new to this forum stuff so please bear with me.

Obviously I am responding to a February discussion so I am not sure whether the original persons involved will get this?

I agree it is exceptable to have two PC's on the same site (L153 - 117)

I would like to ask that; if there are two independent projects on one premise, like a school and there will be 2 PC's, can there also be 2 PD's as one project has nothing to do with the other i.e. M&E and Roofing?

Mike

Interpretation Act 1978. Any reference to the singular can include the plural and vice versa.

If follows that CDM does not preclude multiple Principal Contractors on adjacent projects or even on the same project.

I sent HSE two F10s on the same day a few weeks ago for the same project to notify two Principal Contractors. Seperate construction works, with geographical separation between these.

Of course, HSE preferred online notification system doesn't work in such a scenario.

I would also like to add, and to muddy the waters further; I have two separate projects on the same site with two PD's but one PC managing both, which in my opinion is also fine and better than two different PC's. Whats your thoughts on this?

​​​​​​​