Rank: Super forum user 
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Hi Forum users, I have a question that I would love to hear your thoughts on please.
We are due to embark on a project which will involve us installing a new system in a residential tower block. This is a retro fit meaning that the block is in use and we will be working in common ways and in residents flats. They will not be moved out. We will be the PC and there are a few other works happening at the same time. As the PC I am writing the CPP for the project which will include the fire evacuation procedures, etc. However, as the client is the landlord for this building and their residents will be carrying on as per normal whilst we undertake the works (we will only be accessing a couple of flats at a time.) I have asked them (the landlord/ client) to share their FRA with us to help to inform my own, which they have refused on the grounds that it will be our site. Now, we are the PC and have responsibilities under CDM, but taking this into account, as the landlord to the tenants they also have a duty of care to the residents and us as contractors - so should they be sharing information? Or are they right to hold this back from us?
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Rank: Forum user 
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Absolutely not, this is pertinent information that should form part of the Pre-construction information as it is very relevant to the works. If you are only accessing a couple of flats at a time then you are not assuming responsibility for the entire building only partial. You site boundaries will be fluid from week to week, actually day today, as you will not be holding responsibility for the flats in an evening. in terms of managing this process, I would strongly recommend a robust handover procedure in wirting that is followed every day which includes a walkaround from the Site Manager confirming he has actively controlled any residual risks particulalry fire risks. You will need that information because I can't see how else you would possibly ensure your evacuation procedures etc. fit in with the existing ones for the building. I would make an immediate call to the principal designer for this project and explain this position. The client also has a duty to update said fire risk assessment to incorporate your works and how it will impact. My inclination of the resistance is that a FRA does not exist in the first place.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Great question...not sure there is a simple or definitive answer though.
The principle of CDM is co-operation and communication - does not seem to be working to well. I would have thought the client would have provided in the pre-construction info about working in the premises and THEIR procedures. For example, does the premises have a 'stay put' policy, etc. Without this type of info it would be very difficult to complete a proper CPP taking into account emergency arrangements.
As for the RRFSO, it requires the 'responsible persons' to work together, sharing the FRA should promulgate that aspect of the regulations - there is no good reason not to provide it. Does the client even have a FRA for the block I wonder?
Is there Principal Designer on board?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: RayRapp  Is there Principal Designer on board?
Yes, I have their Pre-construction information which just cites the need for a robust fire evacuation plan from the PC to be approved prior to works commencing.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Agree with #3.
Sounds like your Client doesn't understand his CDM duties.
You can't start work until your client provides all relevant information that he can reasonably provide as part of the PCI aspect of the project.
The PD should resolve with the client.
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Rank: Forum user
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"any surveys or assessments that have already been carried out" L153 page 75. This is the closest mention in the CDM regs. guidance under appendix 1 to a fire risk assessment. Also: http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/flats.htm
example case study point 5 "The managing agent discussed the findings of the risk assessment with the caretaker, all contractors, and with the residents." I have a hard time believing it would sit very well with the enforcing authorities if the Client refused to share this information and a fire was to occur. Edited by user 14 March 2017 12:41:13(UTC)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: WatsonD Originally Posted by: RayRapp Is there Principal Designer on board?
Yes, I have their Pre-construction information which just cites the need for a robust fire evacuation plan from the PC to be approved prior to works commencing.
In the that case the PD should be fighting your corner by insisting to the client the FRA is part of the PCI.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Thanks for your responses, I thought I was right, but I had begun to doubt myself as he was so adamant. As the sole H&S bod in my company, it is nice to have this forum to turn to in a crises of confidence.
I will bypass the gatekeeper and speak with others.
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