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Nathan Murphy  
#1 Posted : 28 March 2017 11:32:18(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Nathan Murphy

Good Afternoon,

Could anyone please offer me guidance on finding material that would support why a staircase within the Gymnasium at my workplace (HMP Elmley) cannot be used as a training device for staff to run up and down.

I have found a Report on the HSE website (HSL/2005/10) which states you can add counter measures to the use of stairwells including no running or skipping steps, as safe practice reinforcement.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Elfin Davy 09  
#2 Posted : 30 March 2017 08:51:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

aud  
#3 Posted : 30 March 2017 10:28:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

From article: "estimated that there are more than 100,000 accidents every year on stairs in the workplace".

Point 1 - 'estimated'. Also the article was about workplaces, the radio programme included (terrible) accidents anywhere, out and about, at home, visiting . . .

Point 2 - out of how many successful stair traverses, by all the people in all the workplaces? We have no idea, but our own experience tells us its going to be many, many, multiples of the unsuccessful (ie accident number above).

There will also have been a significant contributing factor in many - lighting, condition, footwear, other people, etc etc. All unknown quantities.

So. Are stairs so dangerous one must 'forbid' people using them for exercise 'just in case'? I think not. Although the down traverse is by far the more risky - maybe suggest technique management such as handrail-holding for this component. The health benefits must far outweight the risk. On a par with the perennial 'is cycling good or bad?'conundrum. Personally I wouldn't get too excited about it.

Invictus  
#4 Posted : 30 March 2017 10:53:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Who is using it to exercise is it prisoners or staff. When I worked in a prison prisoners where not allowed to run up and downstairs in fact I didn't allow it. Staff are normally not on duty so I would advise and if they wanted to as long as they completed the inspection check, i.e. stairs where dry, no dammage, good lighting, correct footwear i.e.. training shoes with good grip they would use it. I felt it was better to manageit than say no and they just did it when you weren't there anyway.

Prisoners however would be a no, no.

Elfin Davy 09  
#5 Posted : 30 March 2017 11:07:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

aud - I take your point, and don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments.  Yes, many more people will of course safely get up and down stairs on a daily basis than those who unfortunately don't, but if we apply the same logic in the workplace, why do we need to guard machines ?  I'm sure that if they were left unguarded, the majority of people wouldn't put their hands where they shouldn't, but the odd person would undoubtedly do themselves some damage.  That's why we are expected to consider the risk of the potential "worst case" outcome, and then manage what we can to restore some balance.  Whilst I tend to agree that using the stairs for exercise purposes should be a good thing, there is always the litigation angle to consider these days, so is it worth the hassle of going against advice provided by the HSE ?  I can imagine a Claims Solicitor having a field day when presented with evidence that a company actually endorsed the use of workplace stairs for exercise purposes (especially if it means that off duty gym bunnies are using them to run up and down at the same time as those staff who are still on duty are trying to use them simply to get from A to B).  I think it's fair to say that we're on the same side, just looking at it from different angles ....glass half full and all that :-)

rs10  
#6 Posted : 30 March 2017 15:02:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
rs10

I agree with the mjaority of posts - when I was H&S Advisor in HMPS we actively discouraged the use of stairs for excercise.  Though, I do recall rather angry conversations from some of the PEI's complaining about not being able to do such activities.  Those of you who were in the Prison Service at the time may also recall the issues we experienced with PPE and the new footwear!

As others have stated - the litigation claims from some of the prisoners would be excessive if they were to get 'injured'.

RayRapp  
#7 Posted : 31 March 2017 10:35:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Anyone heard of 'volenti non fit injuria'?

Elfin Davy 09  
#8 Posted : 31 March 2017 11:10:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

Ray - Volenti is a difficult one to argue at the best of times, and I doubt whether it would have legs if - as in this case - where it appears that the consent of the employer is being sought by employees to use the stairs in this manner (and even less so if it's then an innocent party who happens to be injured as a result of others running up and down the stairs).  Given the legal relationship that exists between workers and employers, I would suggest that "volenti non fit injuria" would fly out the window to be replaced by "vicarious liability" perhaps ? 

RayRapp  
#9 Posted : 31 March 2017 11:21:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Elfin

Perphaps I was being a tad flippant, but according to the OP this is a staircase in a gym (where lots of exercise takes place and presumably with equipment) and also presumably the persons using the staircase being inmates are not employees. Hence volenti is relevant in this context I believe.  

Elfin Davy 09  
#10 Posted : 31 March 2017 11:44:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

Ray - the original post states "...used as a training device for staff to run up and down", so I'm assuming it's employees rather than inmates who will be using.  I'm also assuming that the staircase in question is used to access the gym (but possibly other areas too ?) so is a "general" staircase/stairwell which an employer will be responsible for "managing", and this is where I was coming from in terms of vicarious liability.  As I said in my previous post, I don't necessarily object to stairs being used for fitness purposes in principle, but do feel that perhaps it's one of those where an employer may live to regret it should an accident result.  A sign of the times maybe....  Anyway, it's Friday ! :-)

SNS  
#11 Posted : 31 March 2017 20:48:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SNS

To my mind stairways are a means of getting from one level to another, not an exercise device per se.

If that type of exercise is neede there are plenty of machines that will perform the function - step machine anyone?

RayRapp  
#12 Posted : 01 April 2017 07:40:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Originally Posted by: Elfin Davy 09 Go to Quoted Post

Ray - the original post states "...used as a training device for staff to run up and down", so I'm assuming it's employees rather than inmates who will be using.  I'm also assuming that the staircase in question is used to access the gym (but possibly other areas too ?) so is a "general" staircase/stairwell which an employer will be responsible for "managing", and this is where I was coming from in terms of vicarious liability.  As I said in my previous post, I don't necessarily object to stairs being used for fitness purposes in principle, but do feel that perhaps it's one of those where an employer may live to regret it should an accident result.  A sign of the times maybe....  Anyway, it's Friday ! :-)

Fair point, note to oneself - must read posts more carefully.

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