Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
graham hendry  
#1 Posted : 06 April 2017 13:30:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
graham hendry

What are the alternatives (without spending £60K on machinery). I've heard of a water jet that works but can't find any info on it? Regards Graham
SW  
#2 Posted : 06 April 2017 21:33:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SW

Not seen waterjets - I know many Companies that use propane burners and small hand held butane burners for vent holes in thinner lam. (Hope you can get the gist of this as I've had to reply on phone - had trouble signing in with laptops and tablet
Ian Bell2  
#3 Posted : 06 April 2017 23:15:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Where does methylated spirits come into this? Glad I'm not the only one who can only post messages by phone. I can't log into the forum with either my laptop or desk top computer. This has been a problem for months. Seems to be a website problem not a computer problem.
graham hendry  
#4 Posted : 07 April 2017 03:50:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
graham hendry

Originally Posted by: Ian Bell2 Go to Quoted Post
Where does methylated spirits come into this? Glad I'm not the only one who can only post messages by phone. I can't log into the forum with either my laptop or desk top computer. This has been a problem for months. Seems to be a website problem not a computer problem.
You cut the shape with a knife on both sides of the glass then pour the meths into the cracked glass and ignite it, that burns through the layer of laminate. They have a computer controlled table for cutting straight lines that uses saws to cut the glass and a heater element to cut the laminate but the element and saws are fixed so cutting holes and shapes is done using meths. I can recall a TV documentary 30+ years ago showing meths being used as a 'new' process but the meths can cause lung disease so it has to go.
SW  
#5 Posted : 07 April 2017 07:24:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SW

Following a few nasty burns i think the HSE may have banned meths for cutting laminated glass 15/20 years ago. Think i read this on one ot their inspector circulars Yes access is rubbish for me on my work computers
chris42  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2017 08:07:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Interesting not heard of this process before. Thinking on what you noted if you were to cut the glass on both sides with a glass cutter as you said, would you be able to run a hot wire through the crack? possibly you may be able to gently pull the now cut glass to open up the crack, to allow the wire to fit between, same idea as they use for cutting polystyrene.

A long time ago I remember using very fine brass wire, for wire eroding high speed steel to make cutters. Can’t remember the diameter, but it was fractions of a millimetre.

If the laminate will melt could it be done with hot air forced into the crack?

Other than that, can you just grind through the lot (with extraction etc)

What an interesting problem.

Just a thought.

Chris

PeterP  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2017 08:13:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PeterP

Originally Posted by: Ian Bell2 Go to Quoted Post
Glad I'm not the only one who can only post messages by phone. I can't log into the forum with either my laptop or desk top computer. This has been a problem for months. Seems to be a website problem not a computer problem.

Try using - www.iosh.co.uk/Login.aspx this has been working for me.

DaveBridle  
#8 Posted : 07 April 2017 08:13:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaveBridle

Would a diamond tipped core drill bit not work? 

SW  
#9 Posted : 07 April 2017 08:50:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SW

The hot wire method probably wouldnt work with shapes Chris. There's not a real problem on straight cuts on Laminated as you can use a blade to cut the interlayer after breaking the cut -  shapes are a mare but using a small gas burner works well.

Thanks for the link PeterP - worked.

Ron Hunter  
#10 Posted : 07 April 2017 11:00:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

According to Youtube enthusiasts, ethyl alcohol works just as well. The idea here is to soften up the plastic in the laminate whist maintaining a precise and clean cut.

I don't think that method would be appropriate in a production workshop setting though.

A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 07 April 2017 11:01:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Originally Posted by: SW Go to Quoted Post
Following a few nasty burns i think the HSE may have banned meths for cutting laminated glass 15/20 years ago. Think i read this on one ot their inspector circulars Yes access is rubbish for me on my work computers

The HSE does not ban anything. If there is a ban it has to be written into law. The HSE might recommend that people look at alternative methods based on their risk assessment but the HSE is not in the business of banning things.

There is a small bit of HSE guidance on this - http://www.hse.gov.uk/lung-disease/glass-glazing.htm which suggests that people use LEV in conjunction with this method to deal with the issue of fumes and glass dust.

No ban though-we on the forum should be careful not to spread stories about mysterious bans and “rules” that appear from nowhere.

thanks 4 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
jwk on 07/04/2017(UTC), walker on 25/04/2017(UTC), danderson666 on 25/04/2017(UTC), RobA on 28/04/2017(UTC)
SW  
#12 Posted : 07 April 2017 11:52:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SW

I take your point about banding around bans willy nilly hence my terms "think" and "may" - I will do some more digging on the process of using meths though as I really did think they prohibited the process following severe burns and prosecutions. Very happy to stand corrected as using meths is the cleanest method
SW  
#13 Posted : 07 April 2017 12:56:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SW

Use of meths was not banned by HSE as Mr K quite rightly corrected me - the HSE info states that meths should not be used for laminated cutting and an alternative solution be found such as..... Also, the use of meths in this way  breaches HFL Regs they mentioned.

Be interesting if they have changed their stance on this as some posts have suggested though.

chris42  
#14 Posted : 07 April 2017 13:06:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

HFL Regs replaced by DSEAR. So you would need to do an assessment.

Ron Hunter  
#15 Posted : 07 April 2017 16:05:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

 Thinking on what you noted if you were to cut the glass on both sides with a glass cutter as you said, would you be able to run a hot wire through the crack?

Chris

Thar can be a rather frustrating experience depending on the plastic - it may simply weld itseld back together as the hot wire passes. I recall a similar learning experience with a jigsaw once - very frustrating!

johnmurray  
#16 Posted : 07 April 2017 18:40:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

http://waterjets.org/archive/about-waterjets/overview-of-waterjets/

graham hendry  
#17 Posted : 24 April 2017 12:23:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
graham hendry

Got it resolved, the MD stepped in and told them to get the meths off the premises and agreed to buy-in glass with curves/circles. Would be a little more expensive but cheaper than burning the place to the ground.

A great example of H&S being given its place by senior management

thanks 1 user thanked graham hendry for this useful post.
David Bannister on 24/04/2017(UTC)
pm1965  
#18 Posted : 25 April 2017 15:33:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pm1965

I worked in the flat glass industry for 4 years and my company used a water jet to cut all circles and shapes in all thicknesses of lami, they did use meths at one point but then switched to using the water jet.

A cheaper solution to cut a circle or shape is to make your initial cut into one side of the lami and then punch a hole into the middle of the circle and break out the glass to the cut. Turn the glass over and repeat on the other side and then remove the interlayer, this of course is a longer process and at much greater risk of damaging the glass.

RobA  
#19 Posted : 28 April 2017 15:18:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RobA

Originally Posted by: SW Go to Quoted Post

Use of meths was not banned by HSE as Mr K quite rightly corrected me - the HSE info states that meths should not be used for laminated cutting and an alternative solution be found such as..... Also, the use of meths in this way  breaches HFL Regs they mentioned.

Be interesting if they have changed their stance on this as some posts have suggested though.

http://www.cutsafe.co.uk/sites/default/files/HSE%20Glass%20Information%20Sheet%20No1.pdf

Agree that it is not banned. I would not like to argue a case in court though when the HSE have published a glass information sheet which states that Highly Flammable liquids should not be used. Glad you got the problem sorted.

A Kurdziel  
#20 Posted : 02 May 2017 09:52:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Looking back at the responses to this thread I noted that some people are getting confused with methylated spirits, ethyl alcohol and (I think) methanol.

Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is the type of alcohol found in your drinks (most spirits eg vodka and whisky are about 40% ethanol).  As you are aware, this attracts duty which more of less doubles its price. Some users (eg university labs) are able to buy duty free ethanol (ethyl alcohol) but there are strict controls on how they store and use it.  Other industrial users who want to use ethanol as a solvent or a cleaner can buy denatured alcohol. This ethyl alcohol which something added to it to render it undrinkable, typically this has been 5% methanol hence industrial methylated spirits as an alternative name for denatured alcohol.  Methanol by itself is a nasty toxic substance and should be treated with care. I would not use it as general cleaning agent for example. (I once found someone in a lab doing just that, spraying it over the lab benches. They had mixed it up with industrial methylated spirit)  

Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.