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Bigmac  
#1 Posted : 07 April 2017 15:24:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ArturK

Hello

How to interpret bulk storage as per regulations:

 SECTION 4.8

The storage of chemicals in bulk

Part B

(a) The storage in tanks, other than in tanks for the time being forming part of a powered

vehicle, of any of the substances listed below, except where the total storage capacity of

the tanks installed at the location in question in which the relevant substance may be

            stored is less than the figure specified below in relation to that substance

Any ideas?

Kate  
#2 Posted : 10 April 2017 14:57:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

What are you having difficulty with?  Can you describe the storage that you are trying to classify as bulk or not, and what makes it difficult to interpret?

Bigmac  
#3 Posted : 11 April 2017 07:11:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ArturK

How you classify 200 kg drum and 1 tonne IBC? Packaging or bulk storage?

chris42  
#4 Posted : 11 April 2017 08:25:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I think this is about the quantity you are storing, not specifically the container. Looking at your other post is the substance being stored the Water / ammonia solution?

If so, I don’t think it is on the list and so this clause will not apply. The chemical has to be specifically on the list.

If not what is the substance you are storing and how much at any one time ("max" if you like).

Kate  
#5 Posted : 11 April 2017 12:48:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I see!  I for one would normally consider both these as packed goods.  Drums are not tanks and I've always thought of IBCs (also known as semi-bulks) as not tanks and not quite bulk.  But unhelpfully, the legislation doesn't define the term 'tank' so I suppose there is scope for argument over the IBC.

The size of individual storages can be environmentally relevant as well as the total quantity because of the worse consequences if a single large container is breached than a small one.

I will be interested to hear a definitive answer!

karl.matthews78  
#6 Posted : 11 April 2017 12:57:03(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
karl.matthews78

From My point of view, I would put "Bulk" in the category of anything larger than what you are going to carry or use in at a specific point.

the 200L drum, one of on its own. then No it is not bulk but if you have collection of 4 of them then yes.

With regards to the IBC as it has Bulk in its name (Intermediate Bulk Container) then yes I would have deffinatly said it is classed as bulk. you would have a hard time proving that it is not classed as Bulk when it is in its name.

But that all said I would be happy to hear if anyone can find a true deffinition.

Bigmac  
#7 Posted : 11 April 2017 13:55:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ArturK

I am thinking in lines that IBC is not bulk storage. If single IBC will leak / damage it will be very easy to contain any spillage, so it is little danger to environment. Also it is very unlikely that all IBC's will leak on this same time in storage area.

However when tank (e.g. 10-20 tonnes) will leak, it will be very hard to contain spillage and it is very likely to damage environment.

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 11 April 2017 14:00:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Bulk is the term used for unpackaged goods in ADR (think shipped by tanker / container and discharged in to a storage tank or silo at the customer)

Despite its name an IBC is considered a large packaging

Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 11 April 2017 14:00:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Bulk is the term used for unpackaged goods in ADR (think shipped by tanker / container and discharged in to a storage tank or silo at the customer)

Despite its name an IBC is considered a large packaging

Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 11 April 2017 14:06:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: artur.kidacki@gmail.com Go to Quoted Post

I am thinking in lines that IBC is not bulk storage. If single IBC will leak / damage it will be very easy to contain any spillage, so it is little danger to environment. Also it is very unlikely that all IBC's will leak on this same time in storage area.

However when tank (e.g. 10-20 tonnes) will leak, it will be very hard to contain spillage and it is very likely to damage environment.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/sragtech/techmeascontain.htm

It should not be hard to contain a spillage - there are requirements for secondary containment see link above

Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 11 April 2017 14:06:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: artur.kidacki@gmail.com Go to Quoted Post

I am thinking in lines that IBC is not bulk storage. If single IBC will leak / damage it will be very easy to contain any spillage, so it is little danger to environment. Also it is very unlikely that all IBC's will leak on this same time in storage area.

However when tank (e.g. 10-20 tonnes) will leak, it will be very hard to contain spillage and it is very likely to damage environment.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/sragtech/techmeascontain.htm

It should not be hard to contain a spillage - there are requirements for secondary containment see link above

chris42  
#12 Posted : 11 April 2017 14:42:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Originally Posted by: artur.kidacki@gmail.com Go to Quoted Post

Hello

How to interpret bulk storage as per regulations:

 SECTION 4.8

The storage of chemicals in bulk

Part B

(a) The storage in tanks, other than in tanks for the time being forming part of a powered

vehicle, of any of the substances listed below, except where the total storage capacity of

the tanks installed at the location in question in which the relevant substance may be

            stored is less than the figure specified below in relation to that substance

Any ideas?

mmmm

Not so sure as this is specific to needing a permit to have the particular chemicals above a particular quantity hence

"The storage of chemicals in bulk" no mention of container

and

"where the total storage capacity of the tanks" again I would focus on the word capacity.

2 million litres of petrol even if in 5ltr containers is still 2 million litres of petrol.

But as Kate notes there was no definition of the terms tank or bulk (other than a quantity listed against the chemical. Yes, smaller containers are much better if an incident happens generally, but if there was a fire all those plastic IBC's would potentially die.

As this would be a Part A process perhaps you should get a definitive answer from the Environment Agency (if you are in England).

Happy to be proved wrong but still think it is all about the quantity.

Of course, if you don't have one of the listed chemicals, then either way not a problem!

Chris

Kate  
#13 Posted : 12 April 2017 07:52:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Except that this section is specifically and explicitly about storage 'in tanks' - if the things the stuff is stored in are not tanks, then it doesn't apply. 

chris42  
#14 Posted : 12 April 2017 14:13:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I only disagree as I used to work for a company that had a part B painting process and the issue was all down the quantity of VOC’s in the paint. We used to use 120,000 Litres of paint a year and it was all in 20L tins or 5L for the additive. Everything about the permit we had, was volume based, and think the important part is in the title of the section “Bulk”but was a few years ago now so before this particular revision of the regs. There may be some mileage on the word “installation” also. I think under the oil storage regs a IBC is considered a tank.

If the OP does contact the EA hopefully they will let us know the outcome.

Chris

Snwdrp84  
#15 Posted : 13 April 2017 10:12:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Snwdrp84

The ADR definition - Bulk container - means a containment system(including any linder or coating) intended for the carriage of solid substances whihc are in direct contact with the containment system.  Packagings including IBCs, large packagings and tanks are not included"

A bulk container also will have a capacity of not less than 1.0m3

Kate  
#16 Posted : 13 April 2017 12:28:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I can't agree with you here, Chris.  We have to read the regulations as they are, not as they used to be.   And the wording of the text of the legislation is more significant than its subtitles.

chris42  
#17 Posted : 13 April 2017 13:00:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

That is fair enough Kate I could be wrong, we are not disagreeing on anything much, there is as you say is no definition of tank. I think if I had enough of a listed chemical in whatever vessel to exceed the quantity listed, I would for peace of mind just check with the EA. Some the chemicals listed they are talking of significant quantities, which is why they use the word tank because who would store say 100 tonnes of anhydrous ammonia in 200L drums. So, I thought the OP’s quantity may not meet the threshold and then the definition of tank becomes mute anyway. I have to admit as the OP has another post about ammonia mixed with water that they didn’t have the chemical listed, as anhydrous means no water. Of course, they may have more than one chemical. Hope the OP has been helped anyway a little, even if it is to confirm no definition of tank. 

The EA use odd terms for things. ie as part of our Part B permit we had to ensure that the paint noted above was taken to the point of use in a “sealed transport vessel” where you and I would call it the tin it came in :o) they knew full well that is what we did, but hay sealed transport vessel sounds better. This was a specific clause, great fun.

chris42  
#18 Posted : 13 April 2017 13:11:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Apology I made a mistake on previous posts as I mixed it up with the other thread the OP has. This is a part B process (the other was part A) therefore as part B it is Local authority not EA.

Chris

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