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Terry556  
#1 Posted : 20 April 2017 14:42:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Terry556

I have an employee who has returned to work after a heart attack, I have placed him on light duties,which includes no lifting or bending, and not to operate machinery because of all the medication he is on. I have asked HR to get him under Occy Health survellance, my question is do I need to write a risk assessment for his condition as the directors are asking me to complete one.

Adams29600  
#2 Posted : 20 April 2017 14:46:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Adams29600

It appears you have conducted a risk assessment to some degree to implement the controls you have. There is no reason not to document it.

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 20 April 2017 18:34:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

and the medical practitioners "fit note" stated? 

The whole purpose of these documents was to provide an employer with relevant information about any significant considerations they would need to make about the return of an employee previously unfit to work.

Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 20 April 2017 18:34:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

and the medical practitioners "fit note" stated? 

The whole purpose of these documents was to provide an employer with relevant information about any significant considerations they would need to make about the return of an employee previously unfit to work.

Striker84  
#5 Posted : 20 April 2017 19:19:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Striker84

I agree with both previous posts. I would personally carry out a documented risk assessment....... Professional medical statements not only assist in carrying out the assessment but also help support the decision for the employee to return to work.

Regular monitoring/review of the individual would be recommend.
MaxPayne  
#6 Posted : 21 April 2017 12:36:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MaxPayne

You definitley need medical/clinical advice, which for us would happen before the employee returned to work.  OH would be best place to advise on how any remaining condition may be affected by the employee's role and the scope of that.  Depending on the advice, and you'd need to provide a detailed description of his role to OH, then you could then decide whether any restrictions of duties are "reasonable" and timebound, i.e. I'm assuming you'd not want staff unable to undertake the full role forever?  You could at that point then undertake a personal risk assessment and review that at agreed frequencies as the member of staff recouperates.

Heart conditions are relatively frequent conditions with bypass surgery, stents. etc all being quite common remedies/treatments, therefore the individual may actually have been at greater risk prior to the condition presenting.  I've seen staff foillowing bypass for example appearing to be nmuch fitter than they were previously.

thanks 2 users thanked MaxPayne for this useful post.
Striker84 on 21/04/2017(UTC), hannahbilson on 25/04/2017(UTC)
Invictus  
#7 Posted : 24 April 2017 08:58:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

There isn't a need to complete any risk assessment he has been deemed fit for work I gather and that's why he is back. 

When I had my heart attack I was off for 12 weeks and returned to work full time no light duties or anything else.

I agree with Max, your probably fitter returning to work than before you had the heart attack.

Monticello  
#8 Posted : 24 April 2017 12:01:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Monticello

Id agree with earlier posts and an individual RA is required, If anything went wrong it would the first thing asked for.  Yes some people are fitter than pre heart attack but many are affected  with tiredness and lower strength than they one had. Also jobs differ massively, light lifting may me ok but there may be odd heavy items or a lot of physical effort involved, workplace temperature may have a bearing, Stess will definetely be a part of any assessment, it might just be keeping up with production lines but also it could be £million deals to deal with. Over many years this approach works for me, a RA worked out together with management and the recovering person, HR and GP. 

ang  
#9 Posted : 24 April 2017 13:11:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ang

I would suggest more of a Return to Work should be completed to document the justification for light duties based on his medical notes if you have any and his level of fitness and when he might be ready for full duties.  

hannahbilson  
#10 Posted : 25 April 2017 05:33:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hannahbilson

Well, it is enough that you are taka care of him by giving light duties and not do any hard work from him,
It is a good thing that you want to submit a risk assessment to the directors but please make sure that there is the medical certificate attached with it so that it will not create trouble for you in future.

Invictus  
#11 Posted : 25 April 2017 07:38:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Not sure why you are asking the question if your directors want an R/A then complete one taking into account medication and it's effect, this should of all been on the fit for work note and it should also tell you what he is not recommended to do while on the medication.

The medication should be a big factor as he will probably be on this for life. You will need to take into account how fast he needs to work if he is on beta blockers, also if he is carrying a Glyceryl Trinitrate spray in case of angina as when you take it if gives you a massive headache for about 30 mins.

Also take into account light duties and how long these will last as he cannot be on them for the rest of his life.

stonecold  
#12 Posted : 25 April 2017 12:15:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Not sure I would want to get invloved with such a risk assessment. How can you ensure the assessment is suitbale and sufficent if you arent medically trained. Googlying such serious health issues and reading about them does not make you competent. Leave it all to Occupational health.

Invictus  
#13 Posted : 26 April 2017 07:26:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: stonecold Go to Quoted Post

Not sure I would want to get invloved with such a risk assessment. How can you ensure the assessment is suitbale and sufficent if you arent medically trained. Googlying such serious health issues and reading about them does not make you competent. Leave it all to Occupational health.


I think your right I wasn't aloud back until Occy health had seen me even though the consultant said I could, a fit for work note is also a must, as this will often say what cannot be carried out. It's not only the physical demands that a heart attack has on your body it is also the mental pressure due to fear of reoccurance, effects on family life etc.

Remember they are a surviour and although most are saved now a lot of people are still lost due to a heart attack, this can have a big emotional effect.

stonecold  
#14 Posted : 26 April 2017 07:36:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Originally Posted by: Invictus Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: stonecold Go to Quoted Post

Not sure I would want to get invloved with such a risk assessment. How can you ensure the assessment is suitbale and sufficent if you arent medically trained. Googlying such serious health issues and reading about them does not make you competent. Leave it all to Occupational health.


I think your right I wasn't aloud back until Occy health had seen me even though the consultant said I could, a fit for work note is also a must, as this will often say what cannot be carried out. It's not only the physical demands that a heart attack has on your body it is also the mental pressure due to fear of reoccurance, effects on family life etc.

Remember they are a surviour and although most are saved now a lot of people are still lost due to a heart attack, this can have a big emotional effect.


Agree totally, Im a safety advisor and in the past have been asked by HR to do risk assessments for employees with heart conditions, brain conditions, eye conditions that I can even pronounce etc etc. I point blank refuse and make the point that a RA must be carried out by a competent person...like I said before Im not competent to try and assess significant health conditions, that why we have an occupational health provider...

stevedm  
#15 Posted : 28 April 2017 11:33:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Not sure what the problems is here...if the persons role(s) means that as a result of this episode they become more vulnerable then workplace adjustments are necessary...if not they aren't.  This is the bit that should concern you.  If during that assessment you find that they need a referral then it should be done.

The person will have already been risk assessed for clinical risks as part of thier ongoing care and treated accordingly (granted that care can vary).  It is good that you have put the person on light duties until your workplace items have been assessed as a number of people when returning from such incident do feel better but feeling better than you did and working within your capabilities are two different things...this should be a note of caution not a point to dismiss..

Invictus  
#16 Posted : 28 April 2017 12:49:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: stevedm Go to Quoted Post

Not sure what the problems is here...if the persons role(s) means that as a result of this episode they become more vulnerable then workplace adjustments are necessary...if not they aren't.  This is the bit that should concern you.  If during that assessment you find that they need a referral then it should be done.

The person will have already been risk assessed for clinical risks as part of thier ongoing care and treated accordingly (granted that care can vary).  It is good that you have put the person on light duties until your workplace items have been assessed as a number of people when returning from such incident do feel better but feeling better than you did and working within your capabilities are two different things...this should be a note of caution not a point to dismiss..


I think it's psychological at times I was told I was fitter than before the heart attack, but it was convincing myself that I was that was a problem.
johnmurray  
#17 Posted : 28 April 2017 13:15:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Surely, if you decide any RA is necessary, it would depend upon the cause of the heart problem, and the treatment being given.
Treatment with an anticoagulant may lead to problems with haemorrhage at some time etc...
A Kurdziel  
#18 Posted : 28 April 2017 14:41:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

What risk are we trying to assess here? As an employer you do not have the skill or knowledge to assess the risk to that person’s health from their medical condition. That is clearly something for the medical professionals.  As an employer what you should be doing is assessing the risk to that person’s safety due their condition and risk to the safety of others (co-workers and possibly members of the public) due to their condition.

You need to look at things like what is the likelihood that they we lose consciousness while working with potentially dangerous plant let’s say.

You also have to look at the severity of the consequences of them passing out. It could be that the systems already in place will automatically safely stop the plant/machinery if the operator loses consciousness.

As noted it seems that you did not carry out a risk assessment before their treatment when the risk of them passing out was probably higher than after the treatment.  It is unlikely that the treatment has increased the risk; it’s just that you now know that a risk exists.

If it was alright then, isn’t it alright now?

stonecold  
#19 Posted : 29 April 2017 04:39:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Originally Posted by: johnmurray Go to Quoted Post

Treatment with an anticoagulant may lead to problems with haemorrhage at some time etc...

Like I said previously if you are a saefty person you shouldnt try and play doctors. Leave it to Occ health.

Unless you have been to medical school you have no place trying assess the effects of significnt illness or health problems.

Norma_Ulke  
#20 Posted : 02 June 2017 13:37:22(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Norma_Ulke

Interesting topic. What would have helped is, if you described just exactly what this person's job actually was.  

Making assumptions rather than fact is probably more dangerous than writing the risk assessment.  I take anticoagulant daily, but I see no need for an independant risk assessment for the job I do.  I do however, let whoever is inducting me know that if I cut myself I may bleed more than others. 

Do you complete a risk assessment for every person returning to work after a period of illness? The answer is probably no. By the sounds of things this is your Directors taking it a little too far, instead of allowing the right department to make the assessment in the first place, or better known as  covering they're proverbial backsides.  A common sense approach to H&S will taking cognizances of legislation, regulation and your H&S Policy, doing it for the sake of an arse covering exercise means that someone has missed the point.

Stern  
#21 Posted : 02 June 2017 14:20:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Agree with the above ref knowing this guys job. It would be a lot of difference between an office worker returning to work after a heart attack than a ground worker. Whilst the office worker would likely be able to do jump back into their day job as normal, i would imagine the ground worker would need to take things a little more steadily and ease themselves back in.

As a few have said though, none of us are medical professsionals so i would 100% be doing whatever the doctors advise. If they say he's fine to crack on and dig a hole then i'll pass him the shovel myself. Alternatively, if they say he needs to take it easy for a week or two then i'll happily make sure he's comfortable and full of tea for this period.

The doctor is always right! 

Edited by user 02 June 2017 14:20:47(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

johnmurray  
#22 Posted : 02 June 2017 15:26:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Originally Posted by: Stern Go to Quoted Post
Agree with the above ref knowing this guys job. It would be a lot of difference between an office worker returning to work after a heart attack than a ground worker. Whilst the office worker would likely be able to do jump back into their day job as normal, i would imagine the ground worker would need to take things a little more steadily and ease themselves back in.As a few have said though, none of us are medical professsionals so i would 100% be doing whatever the doctors advise. If they say he's fine to crack on and dig a hole then i'll pass him the shovel myself. Alternatively, if they say he needs to take it easy for a week or two then i'll happily make sure he's comfortableand full of tea for this period.The doctor is always right!


De-Caffeinated!
Stern  
#23 Posted : 02 June 2017 15:32:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Originally Posted by: johnmurray Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Stern Go to Quoted Post
Agree with the above ref knowing this guys job. It would be a lot of difference between an office worker returning to work after a heart attack than a ground worker. Whilst the office worker would likely be able to do jump back into their day job as normal, i would imagine the ground worker would need to take things a little more steadily and ease themselves back in.As a few have said though, none of us are medical professsionals so i would 100% be doing whatever the doctors advise. If they say he's fine to crack on and dig a hole then i'll pass him the shovel myself. Alternatively, if they say he needs to take it easy for a week or two then i'll happily make sure he's comfortableand full of tea for this period.The doctor is always right!


De-Caffeinated!

Decaf tea is not tea. As a proud Englishman i find the fact that decaf tea even exists an insult to my culture and heritage. And don't even get me started with people who put the milk in the cup whilst the tea bag is still in there brewing. I'm not a violent person but that....!!!

Invictus  
#24 Posted : 05 June 2017 10:05:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I would always have more faith in the Dr. than occ health, as occ health is normally employed by the company. I was told to return to work after 4 weeks of having a heart attack although the surgeon had given me a note for 12 weeks infact when I spoke with the consultant he told me that I should of even gone to the appointment as I was not fit enough.

douglas.dick  
#25 Posted : 05 June 2017 10:31:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
douglas.dick

The employee should be presenting a 'Statement of Fitness for Work' from his doctor, this will give details on;

  • Phased introduction to work
  • Ammended duties
  • Altered hours
  • Workplace adaptions

It will then list details of what the doctor feels is required.

Then a 'return to work' interview should help form the basis of any RA that is required.

Should the fit note not have any of these boxes ticked and the return to work discussion not highlight any concerns that the employee or others have, then a specific RA is not required. The employee should then be treated as any other and under the RA that suits their job role.

Murra1960  
#26 Posted : 06 June 2017 10:38:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Murra1960

Having been on the 'receiving end' of a heart attack (while at work but in no way connected) I can speak with some confidence on this matter. I had three stents inserted, went under a strict course of physical rehabilitation by the NHS and given the all clear to return to work by the cardiologist and the specialist nurses and physio. Yes, I take daily medication, exercise frequently, stopped smoking and follow a sensible diet. I completed a return to work certificate and since then have had no repeat occurences.

I don't see any necessity to complete a risk assessment for a condition that is more likely to arise from a persons lifestyle choices rather than their work conditions. If stress is a considered factor, related in part or full to work then complete a risk assessment. But don't take responsibility for the life style choices of an individual. (While in hospital the occupant of the bed opposite came in from outside having had a 'fag' - and he had received stents that day! Some individuals just learn the hard way)

Roundtuit  
#27 Posted : 06 June 2017 11:01:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

De-Caffeinated!

Decaf tea is not tea. As a proud Englishman i find the fact that decaf tea even exists an insult to my culture and heritage. And don't even get me started with people who put the milk in the cup whilst the tea bag is still in there brewing. I'm not a violent person but that....!!!


Agree that both de-caffinated tea and coffee are abominations - they are not as assumed "free from caffine" but have been adulterated to remove some, but not all, of the original caffine content

Roundtuit  
#28 Posted : 06 June 2017 11:01:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

De-Caffeinated!

Decaf tea is not tea. As a proud Englishman i find the fact that decaf tea even exists an insult to my culture and heritage. And don't even get me started with people who put the milk in the cup whilst the tea bag is still in there brewing. I'm not a violent person but that....!!!


Agree that both de-caffinated tea and coffee are abominations - they are not as assumed "free from caffine" but have been adulterated to remove some, but not all, of the original caffine content

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