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SBH  
#1 Posted : 23 July 2017 07:31:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

At our hospital the security team lock down the entry doors to several areas at night, from10.00pm until 06.00am, as the areas are not then patient /visitor entry points, however they are Fire and Rescue Service entry points in case of fire. Security cannot guarantee attendance to the doors to unlock them if the fire alarm activates,I have stated the doors should not be key locked but should be interfaced to fail to safe with the fire alarm system when the fire alarm activates. the areas in question are not evacuation routes at the lockdown periods as there are no occupants.

Management do not like this solution as they are saying that the areas will not then always be secured against undesirables. How do other hospitals / Trusts deal with this?

SBH

gerrysharpe  
#2 Posted : 23 July 2017 11:38:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gerrysharpe

Originally Posted by: SBH Go to Quoted Post

At our hospital the security team lock down the entry doors to several areas at night, from10.00pm until 06.00am, as the areas are not then patient /visitor entry points, however they are Fire and Rescue Service entry points in case of fire. Security cannot guarantee attendance to the doors to unlock them if the fire alarm activates,I have stated the doors should not be key locked but should be interfaced to fail to safe with the fire alarm system when the fire alarm activates. the areas in question are not evacuation routes at the lockdown periods as there are no occupants.

Management do not like this solution as they are saying that the areas will not then always be secured against undesirables. How do other hospitals / Trusts deal with this?

SBH

Hi SBH,

I would of thought the majority of the doors would of been locked with a Maglock and a timer ? normally these doors have an "open Door" button for emergencies and to allow staff to exit.

I don't think you are just allowed to manually lock up exits especially fire exits when the building is occupied

You can get Maglocks for the Doors and exit buttons installed on a time so you can automatically lock from outside and open at the correct time, and all without physically locking people in

SBH  
#3 Posted : 24 July 2017 08:50:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

The areas are not in-patient areas as they are the outpatient areas and are not active at nights. The doors are not part of the evacuation routes at night but are entry points should the fire service need to gain access. Having the fire service waiting to gain entry is not recommended, hence my question. We dont want patients to wander about a secured area to let themselves out to have a fag and potentially lock them selves out and also let local idiots in.

SBH

Stuart Smiles  
#4 Posted : 24 July 2017 09:45:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stuart Smiles

secured fire box with key card in it? 

the fire service can cut off padlock and access "document pack" with key fob in the pack, whilst maintaining security over the token for building access. In event of loss of security of fob, you can re-issue tokens or send to identified first responder fire station if they would accept the key/fob. - include box checks in security walk rounds.

alternatively, if you have a 24x7 facilities/security desk, could put a phone and door reference sign next to it for remote opening, (obviously requiring some form of verification that are from fire service and have authority to access, perhaps cctv to verify, and code/protocol of authorisation to identify real from not?

or identified person meets responders (per shift) so that on alarm activiation, the warden for area would get a grab bag which includes relevant items and provides access if secure external box is not to your liking. personally, i'd rather a box as it just lives there rather than relying on others to get it/lnow where it is. 

thanks 1 user thanked Stuart Smiles for this useful post.
watcher on 24/07/2017(UTC)
Steve e ashton  
#5 Posted : 24 July 2017 09:52:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

I honestly don't see the problem. There are millions of commercial and public buildings locked shut out of hours. If there's no-one in, the brigade will not go in.. So let it burn, with hoses external through windows and to prevent spread. So what's the problem???
watcher  
#6 Posted : 24 July 2017 09:55:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
watcher

In addition to Stuart's helpful suggestions, I have been told that if the FRS want in, they'll smash the door down.  How many times are these doors likely to be used as access points?

I understand fail to safe linked to the alarm might be seen as a preferable option, but I would want to weigh that up against how many times the fire alarm is activated, how many doors, etc.  If alarms are common, that might be a lot of doors clicking open and letting "undesirables" in

Hsquared14  
#7 Posted : 24 July 2017 10:17:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

I've just had similar discussions with someone from the fire service and her response was "Don't worry about doors - we will make our own access"  try taking to your fire service contacts and see what they think is an acceptable solution.

kevkel  
#8 Posted : 24 July 2017 11:22:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
kevkel

SBH,

I work in a hospital also where we lock down areas at night and have secured areas during the day also where most staff would not have access. The general population of a hospital is protected from fire situations by the implementation of progressive horizontal evacution techniques and staff response with key exit. We also have refuges in play. Our emergency equipment rooms have general access for all staff and have necessary access keys and fobs for restricted areas. These rooms are alarmed to prevent unwanted entry and access to keys/fobs outside of emergency situations.

Most of the HTM for fire safety in hospitals recognise the need for security and lockdown of areas. As you will have staff in response at all times this is usually allowed for.

Stuart Smiles  
#9 Posted : 24 July 2017 19:30:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stuart Smiles

hi,

saw this at ifsec sec show, perhaps a security version could assist in the communication of what you have available and what people need, so that people at the doors can communicate in the same "language" 

http://tagevac.com/solutions/custom-plus/bespoke-control-board/ 

and there is an nhs specific guide for it on the page:

http://tagevac.com/solutions/modular/

saw the lloyds of london board at ifsec and it was so simple and effective it's a brill idea, understandable by all. 

 

LeanneD  
#10 Posted : 25 July 2017 12:37:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LeanneD

Originally Posted by: Steve e ashton Go to Quoted Post
I honestly don't see the problem. There are millions of commercial and public buildings locked shut out of hours. If there's no-one in, the brigade will not go in.. So let it burn, with hoses external through windows and to prevent spread. So what's the problem???

Have to say i agree with this.  If there is no need to gain access to evacuate people then why cant the doors be locked shut?

Initially i thought this was regarding a secure hospital which has a requirement to lock patients up and so my answer was going to be rather different. 

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