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DavidGault  
#1 Posted : 26 July 2017 07:33:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidGault

I was told that a substance known as phos has been banned in the UK (and presumably mainland Europe) but I haven't heard of it before.  I have Googled it and the nearest I could find was a phosphate ban in washing detergents.  Has anyone out there come across this before?  Any information will be welcome considering the void I am in at present.

Hsquared14  
#2 Posted : 26 July 2017 07:49:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

Not something I have ever heard of - Phos - is it short for something else?  

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DavidGault on 26/07/2017(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#3 Posted : 26 July 2017 08:00:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

I think I may have found it - chlorpyrifos is a pesticide / insecticide that was banned in 2015 it is now illegal to store or use it.  Apparently in use it was often just referred to as Fos.  In what context was it mentioned to you? 

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DavidGault on 26/07/2017(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 26 July 2017 08:06:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The only thing I can think of is white phosphorus, whose use in matches is banned under EU rules but it is possible to obtain an exception from the HSE if you have a good reason. White phosphorus as used in matches was a nasty substance and if you have the stomach for it look under “phossy jaw”.

 

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DavidGault on 26/07/2017(UTC)
DavidGault  
#5 Posted : 26 July 2017 08:18:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidGault

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14 Go to Quoted Post

I think I may have found it - chlorpyrifos is a pesticide / insecticide that was banned in 2015 it is now illegal to store or use it.  Apparently in use it was often just referred to as Fos.  In what context was it mentioned to you? 

It is a substance within another solution that is used in suppressing mists above a plating tank.  It is used in very small amounts (maybe 500ml of the main solution per month).
Hsquared14  
#6 Posted : 26 July 2017 08:50:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

David you need to check the manufacturer's data sheet and find out exactly what it is and why it is in there and then take it from there, I would contact the manufacturer in any case.

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DavidGault on 26/07/2017(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 26 July 2017 09:02:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Yes you need it's proper name (not a brand name) and if possible the CAS number.

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DavidGault on 26/07/2017(UTC)
DavidGault  
#8 Posted : 26 July 2017 10:08:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidGault

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14 Go to Quoted Post

David you need to check the manufacturer's data sheet and find out exactly what it is and why it is in there and then take it from there, I would contact the manufacturer in any case.

Yes you are correct, in fact I need to request the MSDS as it tirns out there isn't one on site.  That appears to have been the case for some years.  
Kate  
#9 Posted : 26 July 2017 10:30:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I seem to remember a few years back the local fire service telling me that a material known by this name had been banned for use in firefighting foam.  This was for environmental reasons.  I don't though remember the real name of the material!

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DavidGault on 27/07/2017(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 26 July 2017 11:05:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Phos or Fos?

We have had at least 3 different possible substances that could be called “Phos”. This goes to show that it is really important that people use the proper name for a substance when making enquiries and look at the SDS.  Remember the supplier MUST provide an upto date SDS of any product that they produce which contains any sort of hazardous substance as defined under CLP.

Mix up can be serious with people not understanding the difference between methylated spirit (alcohol with a little bit of methanol in it) and 100% methanol (wood alcohol) which is very toxic. I could also mention confusion between phosgene (used as a chemical warfare agent in WW1) and phosphine (which has been used as a fumigant but is less dangerous due to its strong smell)

Hsquared14  
#11 Posted : 26 July 2017 12:22:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

To expand a little on AK's post I used to work in a paint factory and we used a sort of code for some of the solvents with longer names as they couldn't be fitted on the label and still be read.   Unfortunately this resulted in a new staff member making a mistake his formula called for BuOh (butly acohol) so he went looking for two materials - one starting with Bu of which there were dozens and one starting with Oh.  Fortunately one of the storemen asked him what he was looking for and he was stopped before he made a disasterous mistake.

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A Kurdziel on 26/07/2017(UTC), DavidGault on 27/07/2017(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 26 July 2017 13:50:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The best code to use is the CAS number which is unique for each substance and as it generated randomly can’t lead to mix ups (similar sounding chemicals a have very different codes).

Currently there are 129 million organic and inorganic substances and on the register plus additional information about each substance. It is updated with around 15,000 additional new substances daily. (Phew!) Several websites can get you free access to the registry including http://www.commonchemistry.org/ amongst others.

The SDS should also have the CAS number on it.  

So butyl alcohol is CAS Number 71-36-3 and Molecular Formula: C4H10O an “official name” of 1-Butanol but it is also known as:

•Propyl Carbinol

•butane-1-ol

•Methylolpropane

•Kauri Butanol Solution

•Hemostyp

•Butyl hydroxide

•Butan-1-ol

•N-BUTYL ALCOHOL

•UN 1120 ( UN number for transport)

•N-BUTANOL

•Propylcarbinol

•BUTANOL

•Butyl alcohol

•1-Butyl alcohol

 

Plus others

Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 26 July 2017 15:52:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Not getting confused with the pesticide Glyphosate?

ECHA on behalf of the EU has been running conulstation on this for quite some time.

A substance MAY have mutiple CAS Numbers (the number identifies the substance and its method of manufacture) It will only have one EC/Index number

Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 26 July 2017 15:52:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Not getting confused with the pesticide Glyphosate?

ECHA on behalf of the EU has been running conulstation on this for quite some time.

A substance MAY have mutiple CAS Numbers (the number identifies the substance and its method of manufacture) It will only have one EC/Index number

A Kurdziel  
#15 Posted : 27 July 2017 08:57:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Not getting confused with the pesticide Glyphosate?

ECHA on behalf of the EU has been running conulstation on this for quite some time.

A substance MAY have mutiple CAS Numbers (the number identifies the substance and its method of manufacture) It will only have one EC/Index number

Sorry but you are wrong the CAS number is unique for each substance, based on its molecular structure, irrespective of how it is made. They only ambiguity might occur with  one substance having more than one structure so diamond has a CAS Number of 7782-40-3, graphite is 7782-42-5 other forms of carbon are 7440-44-0.

See https://www.cas.org/content/chemical-substances/faqs#q2 for more information.

Or are you talking about mixtures?

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DavidGault on 27/07/2017(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#16 Posted : 27 July 2017 09:23:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

David's original post says it is a substance used within a commercial product to prevent misting above plating tanks.  He knows he needs to get hold of the manufacturer's data sheet that should give him the CAS or ECIndex number for all the main ingredients.  That should give him a starting point for doing further research.  I don't know enough about plating chemicals to be able to help further - is anyone on here a plating expert and knows what is used to prevent misting in the tanks?

Alan Haynes  
#17 Posted : 27 July 2017 10:54:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

Originally Posted by: DavidGault Go to Quoted Post

I was told that a substance known as phos has been banned in the UK (and presumably mainland Europe) but I haven't heard of it before.  ......

Don't know about 'phos', but USA has banned PHOs some time ago [Industrial produced trans-fatty acids], and Canada is doing so next year - might be what you had heard about

Edited by user 27 July 2017 10:55:34(UTC)  | Reason: corrected spelling

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DavidGault on 27/07/2017(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#18 Posted : 27 July 2017 11:34:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

PHOs - partially hydrogenated oils, (trans fatty acids, trans fats) have been banned in foods due to the risks of promoting cholesterol and increasing the risk of heart attack.  Presumably if you are not using it in food it isn't banned.  One point that is vital here is that you need to be absolutely sure about the identity of what you are talking about and it shows the danger of relying on acronyms which aren't universally understood and on abbreviations to names that could mean more than one thing.    As a profession we use far too many acronyms and I think that is starting to make us vulnerable to getting the wrong end of a lot of very nasty sticks!!

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A Kurdziel on 27/07/2017(UTC), DavidGault on 27/07/2017(UTC)
David Bannister  
#19 Posted : 27 July 2017 12:06:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

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DavidGault on 27/07/2017(UTC)
DavidGault  
#20 Posted : 27 July 2017 15:09:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidGault

Yes, I belive that is it.  Apologies to all for my mispelling which no doubt mislead everyone.

JohnW  
#21 Posted : 30 July 2017 18:15:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

So,the 'banned material' is PFOS Perfluorooctanesulphonate .
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DavidGault on 31/07/2017(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#22 Posted : 31 July 2017 08:18:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

According to Wikipedia-PFOS was the key ingredient in Scotchgard, a fabric protector made by 3M, and numerous stain repellents. It was added to Annex B of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants in May 2009.  PFOS levels that have been detected in wildlife are considered high enough to affect health parameters, and recently higher serum levels of PFOS were found to be associated with increased risk of chronic kidney disease in the general US population. This association was independent of confounders such as age, sex, etc.

Based on an OECD study on PFOS and a risk assessment by Europe's Scientific Committee on Health and Environmental Risks  the European Union practically banned the use of PFOS in finished and semi-finished products in 2006 (maximum content of PFOS: 0.005% by weight). However, PFOS use for industrial applications e.g. photolithography, mist suppressants for hard chromium plating(-note this) and  hydraulic fluids for aviation, was exempted. In 2009 this directive was incorporated into the REACH regulation. In the summer of 2010 PFOS was added to the regulation on persistent organic pollutants and the threshold was lowered to a maximum of 0.001% by weight (10 mg/kg).

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DavidGault on 31/07/2017(UTC)
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