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Ripley  
#1 Posted : 11 August 2017 21:16:01(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Ripley

Hi folks,

I have recently been taken on by a well established Security company and I have been reviewing the RAMS over the last few weeks.

One of the controls listed for the mobile team in poorly lit areas is that officers must use a flashlight. On speaking with the managing team that looks after the officers I have been informed that the guys must provide their own torches or buy one from the company. 

My query is shouldn't the sites that the team visit should have sufficeint lighting in place for the patrolling officers to be able to see hazards without the use of torches and where this is not possible shouldn't the team should be provided with a torch at no cost to the staff?

I'm struggling to find the guidance for the use of torches where other lighting may not be possible any pointers would be gratefully received.

Ian Bell2  
#2 Posted : 12 August 2017 00:24:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

I agree, can't see why it isn't the companies responsibility to provided flashlights/torches. Unless there is some contract issue going on and the security guards are classed as self-employed.

Even then it seems a pretty dumb way of working not to provide the torches.

I assume the company provides some form of radio/mobile phone to keep in contact with base?

benjamin.neal  
#3 Posted : 13 August 2017 06:18:43(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
benjamin.neal

I don't recall working with a security company with guards that had torches.

I would say it is first the responsibility of the facility that you are working in to provide sufficient light, if this cannot be done by permanent light then temporary lights should be installed and if this is not possible then the facilities should provide the guards with torches. It is your security company's responsibility to ensure this in the initial contract/agreement.

Security guards work in all different facilities and environments and to provide each of them with torches would not be finanically viable or practical.

Hsquared14  
#4 Posted : 14 August 2017 09:32:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Hsquared14

Our site is well lit at night but our security team still has access to torches and use them if having to enter an unlit building.  Of course they should have access to torches and these should be provided by the employer.  No one can guarantee full time ample lighting, bulbs blow, power cuts happen, site power can fail and the security guard may have to go and check in darkness, I hesitate to use the term "common sense" because we would all agree that it isn't very common so how about using a sensible approach and considering likely scenarios?

Invictus  
#5 Posted : 15 August 2017 07:24:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: benjamin.neal Go to Quoted Post

I don't recall working with a security company with guards that had torches.

I would say it is first the responsibility of the facility that you are working in to provide sufficient light, if this cannot be done by permanent light then temporary lights should be installed and if this is not possible then the facilities should provide the guards with torches. It is your security company's responsibility to ensure this in the initial contract/agreement.

Security guards work in all different facilities and environments and to provide each of them with torches would not be finanically viable or practical.

As security companies work for other companies it wouldn't be finanically viable for them to put in fixed lighting around companies that they are only contracted to look after. As you say security duards provide work in different enviromentsand facilities, providing them with torches is the cheaper option.

Hsquared14  
#6 Posted : 15 August 2017 08:37:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Hsquared14

Just to amplify what I said earlier our security guards have a rechargeable torch on permanent charge in the gate house and have had to use it on several occasions when severe weather caused power failures.  Without it they would have been in pitch darkness in the gate house without the means to see their way to the door let alone anything else.

chris42  
#7 Posted : 15 August 2017 09:00:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Interesting, but I have a question. Are the torches needed to allow them to see where they are going (ie so they don’t trip and fall) or are they for looking into dark corners for any signs of skulduggery?

I suggest if it is the former (even partly) then they are required for safety and should be supplied FOC. If for the latter only and the company wishes to be mean and make someone probably on minimum wage pay for their own then, I guess there is nothing that can be done.

Invictus  
#8 Posted : 15 August 2017 10:03:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14 Go to Quoted Post

Just to amplify what I said earlier our security guards have a rechargeable torch on permanent charge in the gate house and have had to use it on several occasions when severe weather caused power failures.  Without it they would have been in pitch darkness in the gate house without the means to see their way to the door let alone anything else.

Quite agree even prisons still use torches. Our sercurity here use them so that they can see locks etc when they open in the mornings epescially during the winter months.

If they are required as part ofthe work activity then I believe that the company should pay or they could have to pay in other ways if someone is attacked or trips, the police still use torches.

I don't work in security but I use a torch when completing fire R/A's etc. supplied by the company.

RayRapp  
#9 Posted : 15 August 2017 10:16:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

If the use of a torch is identified in the RA as a control then it must be PPE and provided without charge.

thanks 1 user thanked RayRapp for this useful post.
JohnW on 15/08/2017(UTC)
LeanneD  
#10 Posted : 15 August 2017 15:45:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LeanneD

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

Interesting, but I have a question. Are the torches needed to allow them to see where they are going (ie so they don’t trip and fall) or are they for looking into dark corners for any signs of skulduggery?

I suggest if it is the former (even partly) then they are required for safety and should be supplied FOC. If for the latter only and the company wishes to be mean and make someone probably on minimum wage pay for their own then, I guess there is nothing that can be done.

but surely they only need to see where they are going in order to carry out their duty as a security guard?  I dont think they are suggesting they be used to walk to and from their car.  Would they walk in that dark area if they werent there to carry out their work?

Wether they use them to see where they are going or to look for bogey men is irrelevant.

Kate  
#11 Posted : 15 August 2017 15:51:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

While I am amazed that this wouldn't be provided free of charge, I don't agree that a torch can be considered PPE.  PPE is equipment worn on the person to stand between the person and a hazard.  A torch is just a piece of portable work equipment. 

Consider - if two guards were working together, they might only need one torch between them - unlike PPE, it would protect both people at the same time.

RayRapp  
#12 Posted : 15 August 2017 21:50:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post

While I am amazed that this wouldn't be provided free of charge, I don't agree that a torch can be considered PPE.  PPE is equipment worn on the person to stand between the person and a hazard.  A torch is just a piece of portable work equipment. 

Consider - if two guards were working together, they might only need one torch between them - unlike PPE, it would protect both people at the same time.

Kate

Sorry but have to disagree with you. PPE can be anything worn, held or any addition or accessory... - Regulation 2 Interpretation, PPE Regulations.

For example, a gas monitor/detector is usually a hand held device, of course, you could share one... :-)

thanks 2 users thanked RayRapp for this useful post.
Kate on 16/08/2017(UTC), Ripley on 17/08/2017(UTC)
johnmurray  
#13 Posted : 16 August 2017 06:58:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

A good torch is essential. Preferably a large and heavy one. Personal Protective Equipment: heavy.
chris42  
#14 Posted : 16 August 2017 10:02:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

It does not matter if they can or cannot be classed as PPE, as Section 9 of HASAWA 1974, as we all know states: -

9 Duty not to charge employees for things done or provided pursuant to certain specific requirements.

No employer shall levy or permit to be levied on any employee of his any charge in respect of anything done or provided in pursuance of any specific requirement of the relevant statutory provisions.

So this is not just PPE, if your assessment requires them to be able to see where they are going or for their safety in another way then it is required and would be classed as a safety requirement, therefore FOC

thanks 1 user thanked chris42 for this useful post.
Ripley on 17/08/2017(UTC)
Kate  
#15 Posted : 16 August 2017 12:02:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Thanks, Ray - always good to learn something on the forum!

Ripley  
#16 Posted : 17 August 2017 08:42:47(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Ripley

Thanks for the replies folks.

The control in the RA is in the slips, trips and fall section, the torches are a cheap solution with minimal ongoing maintenance costs so I am struggling to understand the companies reluctance to provide them for free.

The team do have use of personal radios FOC which is also a control in the RA in the assault section, the radio signal is poor at best so is not much use to them though so I may well recommend upgrading the system.

SNS  
#17 Posted : 17 August 2017 22:55:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SNS

Location: South West

Originally Posted by: johnmurray Go to Quoted Post
A good torch is essential. Preferably a large and heavy one. Personal Protective Equipment: heavy.

There are now guidelines, I am told by a family member who is a security manager, to the effect that torches are limited in size and weight so that they are not considered as weapons. Makes my 6 C cell aircraft aluminium model defunct for working purposes.

On a lighter note, a torch with no charge wouldn't work very well ... I shall get my coat.

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