Damian

It is an occupational ailment, the antedote is normally a serious incident!

I think any scrutiny of a health and safety management system needs to be thorough but pragmatic. At the end of the day, you are looking for deficiencies that could result in accidents, injuries, prosecutions, legal actions and so on, usually using a recognised standard or best practice guide to help you in this process. A certain amount of pragmatism is needed to focus on significant issues and identify workable solutions; it is easy to get enmeshed in fine detail and lose sight of the purpose of the scrutiny, leading to the 'elf and safety' accusations so beloved of the popular press.

It is an occpuational hazard Damian.  Some businesses just want a nodding dog who will tell them it's all going to be ok.  As you and RayRapp say, it is an unacceptable way of thinking.  It sounds like you're telling them the truth and they don't want to hear it.

Edited by user 23 August 2017 13:50:41(UTC)  | Reason: misspelling

Not in H&S, but as Quality Manager I got a dressing down from the boss for "doing too good a job".

The way it works is I am a sole health and safety advisor working within a non-for-profit association that has 9 members within various construction disciplines.

Each member pays an annual fee which covers site audits, accident/investigations review of health and safety management systems, training and so on.

Whilst on a site carrying out an audit for a member for whom I represent who at the time where engaged as a sub-contractor to a principal contractor.

The works involved a refurb of school which included a complete overhaul of the schools existing services.

The supervisor for the member showed me round the works allowing me to carry out first hand observations thus enabling myself to draft up and issue a report based on my observations, Incidentally, I use Iauditor as checklist which has been amended by myself which now contains 117 probing questions ranging from excavation work to working at height with all the encompassing middle bits.

However, whilst on site I was presented with a serious breach of the asbestos regs where operatives including myself where being exposed to potential AIB fibres.

The supervisor who showed me round (who actually discovered this potential AIB) stated that he immediately reported it the PC site manager for further instruction, what followed beggar’s belief from a reputable PC, the site manager refused to accept that potential asbestos had been identified based on the existing asbestos survey which hadn’t been identified via the survey, the supervisor then insisted the site manager to come and inspect the potential nasty stuff to determine for himself what this material was. The site manager agreed with the supervisor and called for a test of this stuff where it was confirmed as AIB. Amazingly, the asbestos was left uncovered/unprotected for a number of days whilst the analysis was carried out. When confirmation AIB was indeed present, the site manger requested the cover to be replaced by simply using the existing fixings to temporarily site back the cover which merely required to be pushed back requiring little effort as the fixings where actually fixed directly into the AIB and not any solid timber.

The AIB was then scheduled to be removed by a licensed contractor. In the meantime, operatives where freely left to carry out their trades in the absence of

1. The air not being tested for airborne fibres
2. The affected area was not quarantined whist awaiting the removal of this AIB
3. The panel where the AIB sat behind was not labelled as AIB
4. The panel could have been quite easily removed without the aid of basic hand tools to remove the fixings
5. The panel could have quite easily fell off the wall where it was fixed
6. The Construction Phase Plan was not reviewed or amended to reflect this incident
7. The site manager was rather blasé about the whole incident
8. The site entrance did not alert or warn visitors that asbestos had been discovered
9. An amended induction making visitors aware of the presence of AIB.

It was then I got a phone call from the manager of the member for whom I was representing stating I should have rang him first for further instruction before intervening as I did – he went on to state he had in fact received a rollicking from the PC contracts manager for not following the PC emergency procedures.

Finally, and unbelievably, at the time of receiving the phone call – I was relieving myself reading posters on the wall stating what colour my urine should be and that I should be checking for abnormalities within my gentleman region as an awareness campaign.

And here I am of being accused of being too thorough!!

You can’t make this stuff up!!

Sadly we have all has similar experiences from time to time. There is a balance to be struck between being over zealous and being a wall flower. However those dividing lines are never clear and only experience I suppose helps in treading that delicate path.

What really gets my goat is the job adverts which ask for someone with tact, diplomacy, etc when what they really mean is someone is prepared to roll over. Don't talk to me about 'soft skills' either, having worked in heavy construction there is no place for them if you want a safe site.

Crack on.

Originally Posted by: RayRapp

Sadly we have all has similar experiences from time to time. There is a balance to be struck between being over zealous and being a wall flower. However those dividing lines are never clear and only experience I suppose helps in treading that delicate path.

What really gets my goat is the job adverts which ask for someone with tact, diplomacy, etc when what they really mean is someone is prepared to roll over. Don't talk to me about 'soft skills' either, having worked in heavy construction there is no place for them if you want a safe site.

Crack on.

Spot on.  How do you tactfully tell someone they are breaking the law? "You know you could break the law a little bit less if you...." You are right, those sort of job descriptions have always drawn a wry smile from me.

It goes with the territory I'm afraid, you have to develop a thick skin.  My usual comment is OK then you can be the one that does the visit to the family to explain why their loved one isn't coming home tonight.  As an alternative I just give them a knowing Mona Lisa type smile and slowly shake my head.  They tend to give in when they realise that banging their own head on a wall would be more rewarding than getting me to change my mind on an important issue.

if the school is council controlled in some way get in the councils H&S bods to help

I think the key to all of this is to have a proper H&S (or quality management) system, not just some potential QHSE patsy who job is to say:” that’s ok; that’s not ok.” The first thing being that the organisation buys into a policy that everybody agrees with and which sets out what you are aiming for; anything from bare minimum legal compliance to the best H&S in the world. It means that nobody can move the goal post and take a “flexible” approach to H&S and QA.

You can only do what you know to be right and working with your moral and ethical compass to do the best job you can regardless of whether people get upset or not.

I think, however, that sometimes (and I don't mean anyone here before you all take offence), H&S people can be over zealous in their application of the word of law without using their expertise, knowledge and experience to identify where the application of the law has to be bent round corners to work in a real life situation.  This is why we need the experience, good common sense and an ability to see both sides of any situation.

I would immediately stop people working if I felt they were working unsafely of course, we all should and not get into trouble for it, but you need to educate your bosses rather than shy away from uncomfortable truths.  A new consultation is underway to bring Corporate Manslaughter sentencing in line with normal manslaughter sentences and we sent a copy of this to all our management with key parts highlighted.  This can have a "buy in" effect I find.

Never feel bad for doing the job you're employed to do to the best of your ability!

Absolutley, I've worked for and along side both of the extremes and neither work well. We're lucky in that we've never had a serious accident, but people believe thats because we're planning and doing work safely, which isn't always the case. And I shudder at the thought of our paperwork being tested in court. 

I love being in health and safety, but you have got to be persistent and never give up trying to make little tiny improvements. You're got to be pretty resilient!

I know how Brown feels.... 28 years in this profession & I've learnt to cover my own back. I'm very clear that I'd like them to take my advice but if they ignore it, please do so with full recognition of the potential consequences & don't just sleepwalk into trouble.

There's a new senior manager (not in my Dept) who has told me "don't bother with that, we just need to tick the box" - after the steam from my ears had dissipated, he got both barrels & is, apparently, still licking his wounds.