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Robg  
#1 Posted : 08 November 2017 11:02:52(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Robg

Hi,

Would a group of volunteers involved in trail building in a forest fall under the requirements of CDM and notifiable projects. The activities have been assessed, PPE provided, insurance is in place etc. Not really my area I've just been asked by a friend.

Thanks

georgiaredmayne  
#2 Posted : 08 November 2017 11:26:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
georgiaredmayne

Hi,

I would recommend that your friend reads the guidance on CDM here:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/cdm/faq/index.htm

In terms of notifiable it depends how long/how many people are involved in the project as advised in the HSE guidance.

Georgia

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Robg on 08/11/2017(UTC)
RayRapp  
#3 Posted : 08 November 2017 11:37:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

The activity you describe is not in the interests of the HSE i.e. for notification and not within the spirit of CDM Regs in my opinion. So Not CDM in my book, on the proviso proper controls are in place to manage the task as of course you have already indicated.

Crack on.

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Robg on 08/11/2017(UTC)
johnwatt  
#4 Posted : 08 November 2017 11:38:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnwatt

I'm not entirely convinced that this would fall under the definition of 'construction work', see CDM reg 2.

Personally I feel that a suitable and sufficient risk asessment and appropriate risk control meansures would be enough. I can't see what value applying CDM would provide?

Edited by user 08 November 2017 11:41:41(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

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Robg on 08/11/2017(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#5 Posted : 08 November 2017 12:52:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Not CDM. If you read the definition of construction work it's all defined around work on a structure or in preparation of a structure that is to be built.

I do t see any 'structure' mentioned in the original post.
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Robg on 08/11/2017(UTC)
Robg  
#6 Posted : 08 November 2017 12:59:44(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Robg

Thanks for all the responses. I was thinking it wasn't really what CDM was about but wasn't 100% sure as it is not really my area. I understand the criteria for notifying but didn't think would fall under CDM.

Atkins30323  
#7 Posted : 08 November 2017 15:34:59(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Atkins30323

All depends on what building a trail means, and also who the trail was being built for.

Building a footpath in a park would be subject to CDM so could building a trail in a forest.

Would need more information before deciding if CDM applies, some of the replies here are mentioning structures or related to structures but CDM also applies to roads and earthworks.

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Robg on 09/11/2017(UTC)
achrn  
#8 Posted : 08 November 2017 15:48:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Atkins30323 Go to Quoted Post

Would need more information before deciding if CDM applies, some of the replies here are mentioning structures or related to structures but CDM also applies to roads and earthworks.

Agreed.  Specifically, CDM applies to structures, but 'structure' is explicitly defined to include both roads and earthworks and anything similar to such things.  A trail in a forest woudl be similar to a road, at least if it requires 'building'.
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Robg on 09/11/2017(UTC)
Peterhigton  
#9 Posted : 08 November 2017 16:45:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Peterhigton

For my two penneth worth, I agree with both Ray and Ian on this. It's volunteers making a trail in a wooded area, surely so long as due consideration to H&S is observed, can't common sense prevail here? I particularly agree on Ray's point about spirit, and Ian's about not seeing a structure. A trail can be made by repeated walking of the same route (amongst other means) which would not need CDM!!

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Robg on 09/11/2017(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#10 Posted : 08 November 2017 17:16:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Caution here, think some are over egging the issue.
It's not a 'work' situation, poster said they are volunteers. So all formal h&s doesn't apply.

Nearly a case of elf & safety going overboard.

CDM would bring nothing New, except legal compliance if it was an employed/Client/contractor relationship and money was changing hands etc.

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Robg on 09/11/2017(UTC)
Robg  
#11 Posted : 09 November 2017 09:19:22(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Robg

Thanks again everyone. I've spoken with my friend who has informed me that they are a charity who organises a group of volunteers to build or maintain mountain bike tracks in a forest which is owned by someone else. The work is mainly handtools and wheelbarrows and they occasionally hire in a digger/driver for the heavier work.

They have undertaken this work for years with the usual risk assessments, PPE etc in place. Someone is now trying to force them along the CDM route and he is concerned that the additional work/cost will put the charity out of business as they survive on donations.

Alfasev  
#12 Posted : 09 November 2017 10:24:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

The interaction I have had with the volunteers/charity sector is that H&S legislation does normally apply. I would refer you to http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/charities.htm.

You will then have to decide if trail building is “construction work”. Digging out some earth by hand and placing some gravel is not “construction work” but as others have said that it depends on the scale of the works.  If you are using a small excavator or other plant then I would say it is “construction work”.

However if you decide CDM applies and all the work is being carried out by volunteers  I would say the umbrella charity is the sole contractor. So there is no need for a principal designer, principal contractor or H&SF.

The umbrella charity and/or the landowner would be the  Client but you could nominate the umbrella charity to act as Client.

It must be some trail to make it notifiable, however being notifiable does not trigger any more duties and is easy enough to do online.

The Construction Phase Plan can be a simple document base on the templates you can download from the HSE website combined with your risk assessment etc. already carried out. Just ensure everyone is inducted and signs the risk assessment.

I suspect welfare will be the issue and there will have to be welfare provision. If there is suitable welfare available a reasonable distance away , by vehicle or walking, you can use those and avoid the expense of hiring welfare. You can use a wipes system onsite and public toilets but investing in some like this  https://www.tealwash.com/shop/handeman-xtra-portable/ is advisable.

In reality for such a small project CDM does not place anymore duties on parties (they may have different names) than other H&S legislation so it is possible to comply with little additional expense. 

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georgiaredmayne on 09/11/2017(UTC)
SteveL  
#13 Posted : 09 November 2017 10:32:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SteveL

removing green waste and tree roots by the use of small machinery does not make this a form of construction by any stretch of the imagination. 

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Robg on 09/11/2017(UTC)
georgiaredmayne  
#14 Posted : 09 November 2017 11:30:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
georgiaredmayne

Originally Posted by: Alfasev Go to Quoted Post

The interaction I have had with the volunteers/charity sector is that H&S legislation does normally apply. I would refer you to http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/charities.htm.

You will then have to decide if trail building is “construction work”. Digging out some earth by hand and placing some gravel is not “construction work” but as others have said that it depends on the scale of the works.  If you are using a small excavator or other plant then I would say it is “construction work”.

However if you decide CDM applies and all the work is being carried out by volunteers  I would say the umbrella charity is the sole contractor. So there is no need for a principal designer, principal contractor or H&SF.

The umbrella charity and/or the landowner would be the  Client but you could nominate the umbrella charity to act as Client.

It must be some trail to make it notifiable, however being notifiable does not trigger any more duties and is easy enough to do online.

The Construction Phase Plan can be a simple document base on the templates you can download from the HSE website combined with your risk assessment etc. already carried out. Just ensure everyone is inducted and signs the risk assessment.

I suspect welfare will be the issue and there will have to be welfare provision. If there is suitable welfare available a reasonable distance away , by vehicle or walking, you can use those and avoid the expense of hiring welfare. You can use a wipes system onsite and public toilets but investing in some like this  https://www.tealwash.com/shop/handeman-xtra-portable/ is advisable.

In reality for such a small project CDM does not place anymore duties on parties (they may have different names) than other H&S legislation so it is possible to comply with little additional expense. 


Some very sound advice here from someone who understands and has read the regulations. Hence my original point to read the CDM guidance as to whether it would fall under 'construction works' as there is not much guidance on what is actually being undertaken in terms of works.

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Robg on 09/11/2017(UTC)
achrn  
#15 Posted : 09 November 2017 11:41:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: SteveL Go to Quoted Post

removing green waste and tree roots by the use of small machinery does not make this a form of construction by any stretch of the imagination. 


""construction work" ... includes ... site clearance" (regulation 2).  No imagination required.

In my opinion, if this trail construction requires hiring of plant with operator (as it reportedly does) then it is likely to be construction work and it is likley that CDM applies.  It doesn't necesarily need to be onerous, but it would apply.

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georgiaredmayne on 09/11/2017(UTC), Robg on 09/11/2017(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#16 Posted : 09 November 2017 12:40:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Once again we see the problem of writing generic/wooley legislation.

This task seems to be little more than glorified gardening.

No wonder many detest over zealous h&s people.
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Robg on 09/11/2017(UTC)
achrn  
#17 Posted : 09 November 2017 13:17:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Ian Bell2 Go to Quoted Post
Once again we see the problem of writing generic/wooley legislation.

This task seems to be little more than glorified gardening.

Personally, I've never felt the need to hire earthmoving plant with operator to do any gardening, but maybe your garden is more glorious than mine.

Yossarian  
#18 Posted : 09 November 2017 13:34:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Yossarian

Originally Posted by: Ian Bell2 Go to Quoted Post
Once again we see the problem of writing generic/wooley legislation.

This task seems to be little more than glorified gardening.

No wonder many detest over zealous h&s people.

Then I would suggest their target is misguided. Remind me again, which legislature is responsible for law creation?

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