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Morning all! We are about to use some high level storage space on a mezz floor. Currentlty it only has a standard set of gates for the open edge which we will replace with pallet gates. We plan on designing, manufacturing and installing these ourselves but I have an issue with this and I'm wondering if I'm going OTT? I would rather we bought these gates froma manufacture of them (this is not smething we manufacture) as I belive this puts us at risk under sections 2 and 6 of the HSAW act, PUWER and we cannot conform to the BS ISO EN 14122-3:2016. I'm coming from the "what if these gates fail and we have a fall" and "the HSE would ask for....". The chances of this are unlikley but..... Am I taking this too far?????
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I would have similar concerns and would question whether the in-house engineers who perhaps have no experience of designing and manufacturing such gates are competent to do this. What is the rationale for doing it in-house?
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 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
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Is the total cost saving significant enough to warrant "in-house" when there are so many commercial suppliers? Especially when you factor in design assessment, instructions etc. that a commercial product brings with it Take it you have ensured the structure is capable of supporting materials and equipment
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2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
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Is the total cost saving significant enough to warrant "in-house" when there are so many commercial suppliers? Especially when you factor in design assessment, instructions etc. that a commercial product brings with it Take it you have ensured the structure is capable of supporting materials and equipment
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2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
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Cost savings. Pure and simple.
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If they don't get it right first time, there may be no cost savings but rather the opposite.
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Originally Posted by: Roundtuit  Is the total cost saving significant enough to warrant "in-house" when there are so many commercial suppliers? Especially when you factor in design assessment, instructions etc. that a commercial product brings with it Take it you have ensured the structure is capable of supporting materials and equipment
I don't belive its that significant a saving plus transferes all the risks to the desiger and not us. They have the industry knowledge no us. This worries me somewhat.
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I would not be making the gates in-house and I would be checking the load rating of the floor they plan to use as storage as well.
Give them a written report outlining your concerns and what the possible alternatives are and let them decide in the knowlege they aren't going to be able to say you said it's ok.
I did this in a previous company when I recomended they stop using the roof of the offices as storage and it is amazing how quickly they found an alternative when they thought it might be their necks on the line.
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1 user thanked Charlie Brown for this useful post.
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Originally Posted by: Charlie Brown I would not be making the gates in-house and I would be checking the load rating of the floor they plan to use as storage as well.
Give them a written report outlining your concerns and what the possible alternatives are and let them decide in the knowlege they aren't going to be able to say you said it's ok.
I did this in a previous company when I recomended they stop using the roof of the offices as storage and it is amazing how quickly they found an alternative when they thought it might be their necks on the line.
Thanks Charlie but I have done that. Still told we are making them in house. I have to do a formal report on this and any other solutions but I know what the answer will be. Glad I know I am right and I will stand my ground but I am only competent advice, I can't make them take it. Thanks all for the replies.
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Why can't your engineers design/meet the standards of EN14122?
Are these pallets gates of the 'up and over' design?
If your maintenance department employs someone who can weld tubular steel, what's the problem?
I would expect a fabricator to be able to measure up a relatively simple frame design.
The gate itself won't be load bearing. Check the floor loading as already mentioned.
I don't think the pallet gates will come under PUWER, more the Welfare Regs. In any case why does it matter?
Once again, don't let 'elf and safety' stop perfectly achievable work being completed.
Whether it saves any money is a different matter.
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1 user thanked Ian Bell2 for this useful post.
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I agree with Ian on this one. If they are competent engineers I really do not se the issue as there is nothing in Law that states you cannot create something in house. You could just make it out of Key Clamp (other barrier system available) and it would be safe enough and do the job.
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Why does the career of h&s appear to attract so many negatively minded people?
Instead of saying 'no, you can't do that', the job should be for the most part 'yes you can do that, to comply with h&s law & standards this is how you do the job '
As previous whether you save money and/or have the engineering capability/space/facilities is another matter.
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Looking at suppliers of pallet gates I doubt if you will save that much money. They are pretty cheap.
Nice photos on http://Applegate.co.uk/standard-pallet/
Personally I would provide a detailed cost of each option - buy or self manufacture (including your engineers time, purchase of the EN standard etc if you don't already have a copy.
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Some quote as low as £472+ VAT.
Can you make them cheaper than that??
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I also agree with Ian, including the cost issue. To be honest some home made / In-house stuff is better quality than that you buy, as they tend to over engineer things. Where things you buy are made with the least amount of material and the cheapest grade of material they can get away with. (forgotten how many cloths airers / dryers I have bought that the thing collapsed from the very thin metal tubes bending and bulking – I bet I’m not alone with this – making my own next time)
Who said it needs to conform to BS EN ISO 14122 ? BSI say :- This part of BS EN ISO 14122 gives requirements for non-powered stairs, stepladders and guard-rails which are a part of a stationary machine.
It was for storage, in the OP, so not sure this is the correct standard.
If you do make yourselves, please note in the link Ian kindly added, how they got around the finger trapping issue (easy when you think about it). BTW thay were the cheapest company when I looked a few years ago.
Not a Machine, as not powered or lifting anything except itself, but will be equipment.
Can’t help but feel everyone is afraid to do or make anything anymore, no wonder we have very little manufacturing industry left. I don’t mean we should allow bodged, but properly made (and tested where necessary) should not be a bad thing (IMHO).
Cost of the materials, bar, bearings, bearing shaft, nuts and bolts, Weld consumables, Time, then paint etc may not make it worth it though. Sort of sad in a way.
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I do in fact agree with you Ian that as H&S professionals we ought to be empowering people to do their job safely rather than stopping them from doing their job.
In cases like this though I would be pretty uncomfortable with building the gates in-house unless I was certain the design was able to cope with the intended use, i.e. prevent people and objects falling from the mezzanine and the person making them was a competent welder. Coming from a workshop background I have seen a lot of "welders" who think they have the skills but in fact don't. For these reasons I would just go and buy some gates and have them installed.
Originally Posted by: Ian Bell2 Why does the career of h&s appear to attract so many negatively minded people?
Instead of saying 'no, you can't do that', the job should be for the most part 'yes you can do that, to comply with h&s law & standards this is how you do the job '
As previous whether you save money and/or have the engineering capability/space/facilities is another matter.
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If you have
the people in house with the competence and skills then I see no reason why you
cannot make your own. Came across a home made “up and over” gate on a mezzanine
a few years ago. At 1st site looked great until you tried to move
it! They had obviously seen some pictures and tried to follow them but had no
idea about the engineering evaluation behind its use. This thing was so heavy
needed two people to move (no manual handling risk assessment!) it and if
anyone had ever let it go once it passed the pivot point and it had hit them
the injury would have been severe!
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