Just when I thought I was getting my head around electrical contractors, I find I have not. Ok with building related including equipment installation I think, but I have a question regarding equipment service / repair for you knowledgeable people, if you would be so kind. Taking the fact that a competent contractor will need to have suitable experience for granted, what Qualifications for the electrical side of the work, should you ask for in the following scenarios (to be clear, I’m only interested in the qualifications that will needed to go with the experience): 1) They are to service and repair a nominal 400 – 415 volt piece of mechanical /electrical equipment. 2) A normal bit of equipment with say a single-phase motor in it (dish washer in canteen say) 3) The electrical parts of a hot water heater (the kind you could have above a sink to provide near boiling water) I can’t think of other possibilities, but if there are other types of kit not in the categories above and require different qualifications, to those listed against those above. There may of course be a number of suitable qualifications for each category, so what would be the pecking order if so. I want to advise local management what they should be looking out for when selecting contractors (at least qualification wise) Thanks Chris

The necessary competence is not defined by specific qualification - we have probably been trying to find the text giving the definitive statement you seek, hence the deafening silence

Bit like what qualification makes an H&S bod competent

Further to my above thread I have done a little digging and helped no end by another member, Yes I agree Roundtuit that is the reason of no reply’s.

For those that may be interested. Normal building wiring is covered by BS7671, which used to also cover machinery, now it is excluded! That is covered by BS EN IEC 60204 (and has been for quite some time! as I have been reliably informed).

So, for discussion the question becomes do any of you specify any form of competence to this standard when sourcing a contractor to work on machinery and if not why not.

Chris

Originally Posted by: Clark34486

Use an NIC/EIC registered contractor, why would you try to define it as the client?

I'm a sparky-turned SHE practitioner. My previous org tried to define like this but why would you?

JIB are the industry accreditors in this instance and they will define;

Electrician (approved, technician etc)

It isn't the individual competency you are looking for it's the contractors accreditation

BTW this isn't a H&S matter, this is one for the tech services/ maint. managers job

Sorry, but the NICEIC do not assess their contractors on machinery and equipment design, manufacture, maintenance and repair.

So celecting an NICEIC contractor would serve no purpose.

The NICEIC, and all other electrical competent persons schemes assess only against the requirements of BS7671, which is irrelevant for machinery and complex sytems such as those covered by the SMSR (MD).

The standard in use there is EN 60204-1 (-32 for lifting equipment).

How would I know...

I am a QS & PDH for an NICEIC AC, who also works as a machinery safety consultant, so I do very much know the difference.

I you refer to BS7671 clause 110.2 xi) you will see that machinery covred by EN 60204-1 is excluded from the scope of BS7671.

Chapter 11 of BS7671 is Scope, clause 110.2 is Exclusions from scope.

Just a side note, there are other schemes as well as the NICIEC out there.

You should be wary that not all schemes assess their customers for commercial and industrial works.

ELECSA for example is a domestic only scheme, the NICEIC also have their Domestic Installer Scheme.

The ECA will assess contractors for industrial and commercial, as will STROMA & NAPIT, but, not by default.

All of these schemes are aimed at the domestic "Part P" market..

The JIB will issue a Gold card for "Approved" & "Technician", to persons with no machinery competence, because it is not a required part of obtaining these grades.

Basically there is no measure of recognised competence akin to that for Electrical Installations works under BS7671 for machinery design, manufacture, repair and maintenance electricians.

Primarily because it includes so many other standards, and is a lot more complex than working to BS7671, and following the On Site Guide as a recipe book!

I also disagree with the statement that it isn't individual competency that is required.  It very much is.

Did you all know that if ou hire say for example an NICEIC Approved Contractor to do work in your home, or place of work, the person actually doing the work does not have to posess any qualifications,or training?

Yes that is true, it is a fact, and no it's not an "alternative fact", it is on record as given in evidence (on video) to a Parlimentary Select Commitee investigation.

I can provide a link should you wish to view the evidence.

#e5

BS 7671 is merely guidance, yes, but it is referenced in certain official documents and regulations, and has a foreward by the HSE remember.

BS EN 60204-1 is a little more than guidance as far as machinery goes.

Machinery must comply with the MD (SMSR) to be legal to be placed on the market in the EU.  This specifically includes machinery buit for an organisations own internal use.

Now EN 60204-1 is harmonised to the machinery directive, thus, if you comply in full with EN 60204-1, then you can claim a presumption of conformity to the MD, and quote EN 60204-1 in your DoC legitimately.

So, it is a tad more than guidance.

They are both the minimum required, far from being best practice.

M&Q have their own specific set of legal regulations and are akin to the requirements of BS7671 "on steriods", and there are specific BS's referring to this sector.

Yes, the training of apprentices in this manner would give them the competencies required.

However, remember that finished years ago, there are very few real apprenticeships in electrical these days.

I agree on the suitable and sufficient/reasonably praticable, but it must be demonstable, and that is nigh on impossible without some sorts of qualifications and proof of exprience.

I discussed developing a course on EN 60204-1 with one of the National Awarding bodies, and was advised that it would be very expensive and that the demand was not really there!

Originally Posted by: Clark34486

BTW this isn't a H&S matter, this is one for the tech services/ maint. managers job

Interesting comment when I read this yesterday evening, made me think for a while. I think it is H&S. Good discussion point though.

H&S is not the preserve of just us H&S Managers / Advisors / Officers / Consultants, but everyone’s in the company, we actively encourage ownership of H&S. So just because a Maintenance or Technical or Facilities management person / team may actually bring in this expertise, wouldn’t not make it a H&S issue (sorry for the double negative).  

If I was a site H&S person I would be concerned with operatives having appropriate training to drive a MEWP or Telehandler etc. If I was in facilities management I would want to ensure that we used someone from the gas safe register etc. So, helping define competence is part of H&S where the competence can have an affect on safety or health. Electricity can stop your heart in a second, so I would say competence to carry out works on building electrics or machine electrics does come under H&S. Whether this is us direct or us advising / providing info to others it still falls under our remit. We see posts on this web site regularly regarding competence for this that and the other, so why would machinery maintenance be different.

From my own investigation I agree with Paul that the various schemes or cards seem to only be based around Training qualifications like City and Guilds 2365 which has older academic parts ie C&G 2360 or 2330 (which is on the standard BS7671) and an NVQ practical element. Which is all as you mention managed by JIB. However, this does not seem to include machinery to 60402. When I noted this, I became concerned that newer electricians being accepted in the scheme will have been trained and tested against the latest amendments of BS7671 and so be given no knowledge of the 60402 standard.

You all seem to agree that there is no actual current qualification for working on machine electrics, other than possibly some in house ones. I did an apprenticeship (but Mechanical engineering) which consisted of practical training at work and collage gained qualifications. So, it included both practical experience and formal qualifications.

Therefore, should not those working on machinery electrics have formal training as well as experience. Hence my questions. It seems quite concerning that this standard has been around for quite some time and there is nothing that we or any maintenance department could ask for, don’t you think. Am I the only one concerned by this or are people happy to put their heads in the sand an ignore it and keep getting normal electricians in to work on ever increasing complex machinery electrics. My concern is not only for the electrician’s safety but that of my company’s employees afterwards.

What do other Inhouse or external consultants actually advise?

PS also good point about the British Standards, Clark34486

Chris

Edited by user 07 February 2018 10:52:05(UTC)  | Reason: forgot to add Quote

Originally Posted by: Clark34486

This is where it gets really interesting

H&S is always interesting :o)

Originally Posted by: Clark34486

I interviewed a lady for the position of 'Regional H&S Manager' really headstrong and steadfast she certainly was

I picked a subject where it was clear there was a gap in her skillset and formulated a question, she readily admitted she didn't know but her answer was 'i'll research' I asked her how, she stated 'i'll find the appropriate BS and regulatory instruments/ guidance' was she wrong? no of course not but is that the right course of action? you read a book and state what the book says? are we still telling people what to do rather than what to do and how to do it.

Yes, that is the backbone of what we do, after all if you do something like the NEBOSH Diploma it is not all given to you, you have to read legislation and ACOPs etc yourself, but your skill becomes interpretation and application. Also, for us if we are doing our assessments etc properly will involve others in the process. You get to know the layout of legislation and where you will find definitions etc. but I’m not sure that will completely work for electricians, it will to an extent, but it is a slightly different animal. As above you would not expect someone who can drive a scissor lift to be able to read the owner’s manual and be able to operate a cherry picker safely.

Originally Posted by: Clark34486

I'd be inclined to start by finding someone that does know and then supplementing that with the practical and theoretical knowledge, and then offering that practical approach tempered with the technical guidance.

Yes if it was your own employee, but I’m taking about brining contractors in, and having confidence in them. Sadly, experience is not very measurable, word of mouth at best, unless part of some scheme which reviews the appropriateness of training and experience, but JIB does not for instance include machinery to 60402. We can verify a qualification at least.

Originally Posted by: Clark34486

I was really fortunate in my last role that I was mentored by a gent that wasn't necessarily a H&S wizz but was a guy with stacks of practical knowledge and experience (he was a SHE Director). I was introduced to coaching rather than telling and understanding the individual that i am trying to assist after all I am assisting them not telling them.

Quite agree provide people with info then let them get to the natural conclusion, with a little guidance and coaching to keep them on track. Of course, this is the best way, but as they say about horses, water and making them drink, some we deal with can’t see what is under their nose sometimes and need to be told things. Sometimes you may need a 2 x 4 to help with the explanation or at least a threat. How many managers have you come across that will only do things that are direct legal requirements (even then!).  

We don’t all have maintenance departments, to outsource to. However, we may, as do I have a number of managers of discrete facilities who, will look at me blankly if I just say “make sure the person you bring in to work on your machines needs to be competent”.( you know the look, the one a puppy gives when it wants some of your food). It seems better to me to help them define what competence looks like than a dozen individual managers with a expressionless look on their faces and accounts bean counters saying are you sure we need….

Originally Posted by: Clark34486

Are we as SHE practitioners merely librarians and researchers?

Yes!  ok no, as above our skill lies in interpretation and linking all the disjointed research and information we gather into a way forward which is acceptable to the business we are in. While maintaining our integrity, and of course keeping people safe and preventing occupation health issues. God like really :o)

That’s why we can move between industries (we may get a steep learning curve at the start). We are also the one person who everyone loves to hate (brings them all together with a common aim, I consider it team building), until the worst happens then suddenly we are popular (ish).

I think from all the posts above I think we agree there is a gap in the training regarding electrical works on machinery. From Pauls comment about lack of demand then is this down to us to start asking for it or should there be another mechanism. This should affect most industries from car garages with vehicle lifts to Manufacturing companies (do we always bring in the manufacturer for repairs). Or are we saying bring in any old sparks and let them loose on equipment that is vital to our businesses.

Interesting the number of views but only a few people discussing.

Chris