Rank: Forum user 
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I am involved with a contract which is placed by the MOD to update systems and equipment across 60 UK sites. For some sites it is necessary to carry out demolition and construction activities to meet this requirement. Given the scope of work it is evident that CDM applies. I am in discussion with the MOD because they believe that they are not the (CDM) client because they asked for an improved service and it was us who chose to carry out construction activities. In fairness they knew that to be the case during the bid process. Their representative refuses to accept that they are the CDM client as it is us who are identifying the need for construction and employ both designers and construction companies to do the work. A H&S colleague advised that there are cases when the MOD might be correct. We accept that we oversee design and construction activities and have appointed a PD so it is evident that we carry some “client” responsibilities. Where does that leave the MOD? Please, NO descriptions of CDM and who does what, etc. – just can there be 2 clients, and if not who is in this case. (And “yes” I have looked at the regs and in the HSE web-site.) But whatever you say, I need documented evidence from somewhere to prove it to both MOD and my organisation – so a link/reference would be good.
Thanks
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Rank: Forum user
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Have you been appointed as Principal Contractor? as there will be seemingly more than 1 contractor involved within the project. Remember, the appointment of Principal Contractor and Principal Designer can be made by the client only. So if you have indeed been appointed Principal Contractor, who appointed you?
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Rank: Super forum user
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I assume you you have read page 16 of the HSE L153 CDM guidance document.
Use the list at para 26 to guide your argument.
Ultimately the MoD I assume will be paying your company for the work. A strong indicator who is the Client.
If as part of the design process you have identified that demolition is required.
The MoD have presumably then agreed with your design proposal.
I don't see that you take any client duties. Seems clear cut to me. It is ultimately for MoD use the finished project facilities etc.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Alan
After some head scratching I have come to the conclusion the MoD are the 'Client'. It is generally agreed the client is the person who pays for the work. Meanwhile, Regulation 2 - Definition states: “client” means any person for whom a project is carried out;
CDM guidance L153 is a more nebulous stating: 'In any project there may be more than one client. Regulation 4(8) may be
used where there is more than one client, but all agree that only one of them
should be responsible for carrying out the requirements of CDM 2015.'
In some circumstances, it may not be clear who the client or clients are. Any
uncertainty should be resolved as early as possible by considering who:
(a) ultimately decides what is to be constructed, where, when and by whom;
(b) commissions the design and construction work (the employer in contract
terminology);
(c) initiates the work;
(d) is at the head of the procurement chain; and
(e) appoints contractors (including the principal contractor) and designers
(including the principal designer).
So, I think you need to consider all the above and discuss with your MoD representative.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Originally Posted by: Alan Armer  Please, NO descriptions of CDM and who does what, etc. – just can there be 2 clients, and if not who is in this case. (And “yes” I have looked at the regs and in the HSE web-site.) But whatever you say, I need documented evidence from somewhere to prove it to both MOD and my organisation – so a link/reference would be good.
So if you've already read the regs and already know who does what then you already know about the reference in regulation 4 (8) that explicitly refers to the situation where there is more than one client. I don't think you'll get anything more definitive than the actual regs themselves. However, the actual case you describe may not fall within that definition (ie, the final question you ask does not actually seem to reflect the initial question you ask - yes there clearly can be two clients, but that does not mean that your case actually has two clients). I suspect the detail of whether the MOD could be a client is quite subtly buried in the relevant appointments and contracts. The regs say the client is the person for whom the construction work is carried out, but I agree that that doesn't necessarily propagate all the way back to the MOD. For example, if I hire a coach company to run a shuttlebus service to the train station, and the coach company buys two new buses to do that, and appoints a contractor to build a new garage to accommodate the new buses, then I would not be the cdm client, even though I've somehow caused the construction project. Is the construction work being done for your company, so you can provide a service to the MOD, or is your company managing a construction project done for the MOD is probably a question that no-one on this forum can answer.
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Rank: Forum user
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In addition to my previous comment see para 25 from L153 which states "In any project there may be more than one client. Regulation 4(8) may be used where there is more than one client, but all agree that only one of them
should be responsible for carrying out the requirements of CDM 2015" therfore the MOD in my opinion are client and must draft up a "clear breif" with the willingness to communicate that brief to appointed dutyholders therefore eradicating any ambiguity.
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Rank: Forum user
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Thank you everyone. I purposefully left a few details off to try to simplify the discussion.. My view is that the MOD is the client as they ultimately want the project and all that it entails. They were also aware that some construction would be involved. My company is an electronic engineering company which has no requirement (normally) to undertake any construction activities (back to the regs, there!) On this occasion it is necessary to install stuff (e.g. antennas) but MOD refuses to acknowledge that they are the client, but using the “who pays” argument, ultimately they do. Similarly we always have to have their agreement before anything proceeds. I asked the question because, regardless of the logic and regs, they have been so adamant that I needed re-assurances. Thank you to you all. We have taken on the duties of principal contractor, and have contracted others. We have also nominated a PD. Now the hard bit – persuasion!! Thanks again
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Rank: Forum user 
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Hi Alan,
Hope you are well.
The MOD may have delegated client duties to the company that is paying your company for the works which as you know under CDM they are able to do. However they must still provide pre construction information as it’s their sites you are working on. ;)
I will PM you in relation to specifics of the contract.
Georgia
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: georgiaredmayne Hi Alan,
Hope you are well.
The MOD may have delegated client duties to the company that is paying your company for the works which as you know under CDM they are able to do. However they must still provide pre construction information as it’s their sites you are working on. ;)
A client can't delegate client duties to an organsiation that is not the client, except in the case of a the client in question being a domestic client (the MOD is clearly not a domestic client).
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: achrn <p><div class="quote"><span class="quotetitle">Originally Posted by: georgiaredmayne <a href="/posts/m772625-CDM--Client#post772625"><img src="/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif" title="Go to Quoted Post" alt="Go to Quoted Post" /></a></span><div class="innerquote">Hi Alan,
Hope you are well.
The MOD may have delegated client duties to the company that is paying your company for the works which as you know under CDM they are able to do. However they must still provide pre construction information as it’s their sites you are working on. ;)
</div></div>
</p><p>A client can't delegate client duties to an organsiation that is not the client, except in the case of a the client in question being a domestic client (the MOD is clearly not a domestic client).
</p><p>
</p>
Perhaps incorrect terminology on my part however, see Reg 4 in relation to acting as the only client in relation to a construction project. Page 14 of managing health and safety in construction.
‘(8) Where there is more than one client in relation to a project—
(a)one or more of the clients may agree in writing to be treated for the purposes of these Regulations as the only client or clients; and
(b)except for the duties specified in sub-paragraph (c) only the client or clients agreed in paragraph (a) are subject to the duties owed by a client under these Regulations;
(c)the duties in the following provisions are owed by all clients—
(i)regulation 8(4); and
(ii)paragraph (4) and regulation 8(6) to the extent that those duties relate to information in the possession of the client.’
P.s in relation to the OP’s post there is another company involved of whom the construction works is being carried out for. Also if you have ever worked for the MOD you will know how much they like to ‘delegate’ ;) Edited by user 01 March 2018 18:31:01(UTC)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: georgiaredmayne Perhaps incorrect terminology on my part however, see Reg 4 in relation to acting as the only client in relation to a construction project
That's different, and already discussed further up the thread - if there are multiple clients, one can elect to take all the duties. Except in the case of domestic clients, a body that is not actually a client for the project cannot take on the client duties, though a body that is a client can avoid the duties in the case where another client on the same project agrees to take them on exclusively.
You can't make someone that isn't a client for the project be the client - a client can't delegate client duties to an organsiation that is not already a client for the project.
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: achrn <div class="quote"><span class="quotetitle">Originally Posted by: georgiaredmayne <a href="/posts/m772686-CDM--Client#post772686"><img src="/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif" title="Go to Quoted Post" alt="Go to Quoted Post" /></a></span><div class="innerquote"><div class="quote">Perhaps incorrect terminology on my part however, see Reg 4 in relation to acting as the only client in relation to a construction project
</div><div class="quote"></div></div></div><div class="quote">
</div><div class="quote">That's different, and already discussed further up the thread - if there are multiple clients, one can elect to take all the duties. Except in the case of domestic clients, a body that is not actually a client for the project cannot take on the client duties, though a body that is a client can avoid the duties in the case where another client on the same project agrees to take them on exclusively.</div><div class="quote">
</div><div class="quote">You can't make someone that isn't a client for the project be the client - a client can't delegate client duties to an organsiation that is not already a client for the project.</div><div class="quote">
</div>
Thanks. As already detailed I understand the regs and the companies set up in terms of CDM (I used to work for them!). Again, incorrect terminology on my part in terms of delegation. Apologies for the confusion this has quite clearly caused you. No one is making anyone be client, it is agreed within a contract, for said company to be treated as the only client of which said company has signed up to.
I didn’t read further up the thread upon response hence why I forgot that this was already mentioned.
I have discussed detail on this with the OP outside this thread which I am sure they are currently following up on.
Have a great weekend! Edited by user 02 March 2018 12:28:26(UTC)
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