Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
sjh1973  
#1 Posted : 20 June 2018 08:16:11(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
sjh1973

We currently have an employee who has an ongoing arthritis condition in his knee caused by an old army injury. He has been able to work with this condition and is still seeing a doctor for it. While at work he stepped down out of his vehicle (bin lorry) and his knee gave way causing him pain and stiffness. He has been to his doctor again who has given him a sick note for 2 weeks. My question though is this reportable under RIDDOR as he will be away for 2 weeks following the incident or is it not, as its an ongoing medical issue he has? Im happy to report it, just wondered what others thoughts are on this thanks.  

Hsquared14  
#2 Posted : 20 June 2018 08:29:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

I would say that this was an ongoing medical condition caused by arthritis making his knee joint unstable. So I wouldn't class it as RIDDOR

thanks 1 user thanked Hsquared14 for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 21/06/2018(UTC)
lorna  
#3 Posted : 21 June 2018 09:11:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lorna

Just stepping out of his lorry is a normal part of life, assuming of course that there was nothing wrong with the step/ground (if under your control) so IMHO not reportable.

thanks 1 user thanked lorna for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 21/06/2018(UTC)
chris42  
#4 Posted : 21 June 2018 09:54:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I agree it is unlikely to be reportable. I would say though that I know someone who works for a council as a manager and they occasionaly have to drive a bin wagon when people don’t turn in. I know when they are short staffed which is often that he as the driver ( with a bad back) has to constantly get in and out of the vehicle to help the other lads as they are short staffed. I know this does him in by the end of the day. So someone with a pre existing condition may be able to drive all day, but was it agrivated due to having to “help out” with the other job ? Just think in this senario how many times they would need to get in and out over the course of a day !

Just a thought.

thanks 1 user thanked chris42 for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 21/06/2018(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 22 June 2018 10:03:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Not work related so not a RIDDOR

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 22/06/2018(UTC)
Steve e ashton  
#6 Posted : 24 June 2018 05:12:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

I have to say I disagree with the responses so far....  The job cannot be done without climbing in and out of the cab - climbing in and out of the cab is a part of the job and should be considered a work activity... And the pre-existing injury is a red herring.  Pre-employment health screening should have established that the individual was/was was not fit to undertake this duty (including climbing in and out..).  If he has been considered fit and is now injured then maybe the medical assessment was in error - but that is not for the H&S professional to guess - and so, in my books, this one is reportable.  Further - a referral for a second opinion on health suitability for this role might be a good idea.

thanks 1 user thanked Steve e ashton for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 26/06/2018(UTC)
Xavier123  
#7 Posted : 25 June 2018 11:38:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

Steve - the problem is that one can't define an accident here.  Yes there is an injury, but the accident has to be separately described.  A work related task is not a work related accident (as an identifiable event).  The requirement to report arises from an accident that leads to an injury, not the mere fact of an injury.  The HSE advice (fwiw) on their website does address this point.

If 'climbing in and out of a cab' is an accident then I expect 1000 near miss reports every day.

However,  had there been a failure in the OH/employment process that led to this injury being exacerbated then there is possibility of viewing that as the 'accident' i.e. a management failure contributing to the injury.  Tenuous but I could go with that.

thanks 1 user thanked Xavier123 for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 26/06/2018(UTC)
Steve e ashton  
#8 Posted : 25 June 2018 20:34:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Climbing out of a refuse truck is physically demanding and the step heights can be excessive. Even fit and healthy people can 'jar' knees and ankles when dismounting if doing it in a hurry. Would you still say "not an accident"? Do we know whether the injured party climbed down facing the cab or facing away... Or did he jump? Was the ground firm level and clear of debris or was it on a waste disposal site with ankle / knee turning lumps all over the place??? Sorry, I am commonly the one suggesting not RIDDOR, but in this case I still think it qualifies.
thanks 1 user thanked Steve e ashton for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 26/06/2018(UTC)
hilary  
#9 Posted : 26 June 2018 08:40:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I concur with Steve.  He climbed out of his cab and his knee gave way - that is the incident that gave rise to the injury. It was a work related task or he would not have been in the cab in the first place.

It is unfortunate that he had a pre-existing condition but this will be taken into account when you report.

thanks 1 user thanked hilary for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 26/06/2018(UTC)
Elfin Davy 09  
#10 Posted : 26 June 2018 09:44:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

... and yet another example of how poor the RIDDOR Regulations are.

The IP has an existing medical condition which - it appears - he is willing and happy to continue working with, although he obviously knows that doing so will cause him pain occasionally, and this is unfortunately one of those occasions. 

Also - and again on the face of it - this is the sort of "incident" that nobody at the HSE would be remotely interested in (unless of course there are other circumstances that we aren't aware of), so what would be gained by making it reportable ?

In my opinion, this is one of those "common sense" situations (so long as the work was being carried out as it should have been) where you should simply sit down with the person concerned once fit again (at a return to work interview) and review their suitability to do the job.

thanks 2 users thanked Elfin Davy 09 for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 26/06/2018(UTC), lorna on 27/06/2018(UTC)
Steve e ashton  
#11 Posted : 27 June 2018 07:18:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

If you would report it for a previously fit and healthy employee (and in my book this is one that IS reportable) then you MUST also report even if the injured party had a previous condition predisposing to injury... Otherwise you incentivise all sorts of extremely unpleasant unethical underhand bahaviour from employers... I don't need to report exposure to occupational asthmogens because I only employ asthmatics... All my office workers have bad backs so I don't need to provide decent chairs. I only employ people with fragile skulls so when they fall from the scaffold and die its not my fault, its down to their preexisting condition... I know these are blatantly stupid examples, but... If a worker is injured at work doing a work activity, and it meets the threshold, then its reportable.... I guess at the end of the day reporting or not only becomes an issue if it ever gets to court, which these days seems increasingly unlikely.
Xavier123  
#12 Posted : 27 June 2018 08:49:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

I maintain that in making this conclusion that the idea of 'accident' and 'accidental' are being conflated.

HSE website states:

Injuries themselves, eg ‘feeling a sharp twinge’, are not accidents. There must be an identifiable external event that causes the injury, eg a falling object striking someone.

You have added extra information to the scenario in order to create fault e.g. excessive step height, jumping down etc.  These would, as I hinted at in my post and others, push towards it being an accident but these were not implied from the OP.  Once someone can explain how the normal day to day task of 'stepping down from the cab' is an accident in all scenarios (including ones in which no injury is incurred) then I will concur.  It is an absolutely intended task being carried out in the intended manner.  You are arguing that day to day work is an accident and I simply can't agree with that and is presumably why the HSE have added this (admittedly still murky) explanation as above.

RIDDOR is law and requires all the constituent parts to be present in order for the requirements to kick in.

'Work-related'.

'Accident'

'Specified injury'

I argue that one of these legally definable items is missing.  If you take away the actual injury and apply the HSE guidance from above then I remain intrigued as to what is left to describe as being accidental or an accident.

thanks 5 users thanked Xavier123 for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 27/06/2018(UTC), sjh1973 on 27/06/2018(UTC), Elfin Davy 09 on 27/06/2018(UTC), webstar on 28/06/2018(UTC), lorna on 28/06/2018(UTC)
Elfin Davy 09  
#13 Posted : 27 June 2018 13:15:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

Steve

Sadly, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. 

I speak from personal experience, having a similar condition myself (an arthritic knee caused by too many football injuries in my yoof), and I know I have to take care with it, or it is likely to give way - or at least lead to a flare up of pain or stiffness.  If I was getting out of a vehicle (in the correct manner), but just happened to jar or twist my knee in the process (which believe me is easily done with a dodgy knee), it would be the fault of my existing injury rather than the fault of the activity, and (from the information provided by the OP) this seems to be what has happened on this occasion.  It is for that reason why - in my opinion - it is neither an accident nor RIDDOR reportable (and although I DO take your point about "selective reporting", I don't think this one falls into that category personally). 

thanks 3 users thanked Elfin Davy 09 for this useful post.
webstar on 28/06/2018(UTC), lorna on 28/06/2018(UTC), sjh1973 on 10/07/2018(UTC)
dennish  
#14 Posted : 28 June 2018 04:30:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dennish

Criteria not met under Riddor  - No Riddor

thanks 1 user thanked dennish for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 10/07/2018(UTC)
Tigers  
#15 Posted : 28 June 2018 11:16:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tigers

When a compensation claim is made one of the first questions asked by the insurance company is "was the accident RIDDOR reportable".

In the world of the insurer if you report the incident there is an admission that an accident has occurred and will start their investigations from there. This gives them a starting point to make a case, as they know that legally you have to report as you do not want to be fined.

If after your intial investigation you decide not to report, the insurers may come to the conclusion that it may be harder to get a result, so might even drop the case.  

Not advocating not to report only be careful what you do report

thanks 1 user thanked Tigers for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 10/07/2018(UTC)
Martin Gray  
#16 Posted : 09 July 2018 09:27:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Martin Gray

Not quite a reply to your question but if your employee is a Veteran then he can get assistance for his arthritic knee if his local Doctor or NHS are not assisting him.  The attached link is from a Veterans Facebook page and many ex military have been successful in getting their knees and hips sorted out.

www.rjah.nhs.uk/Our-Services/Orthopaedic-Surgery/veterans.aspx

Not used it myself but there have been many who have and have written praising the service offered by Colonel Carl Mayer and his Team.

It might help get your employee back and fit for work without this happening again.

thanks 1 user thanked Martin Gray for this useful post.
sjh1973 on 10/07/2018(UTC)
Users browsing this topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.