Rank: Forum user 
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Hi I am in friendly dispute with a colleague over our company Fire Safety Policy.
Most of it I agree with but there is a part in the policy which states
“Priority is to raise the alarm and evacuate the building only tackle a fire if trained and safe to do so” Nothing wrong with that statement, however the policy goes on to say that “Fighting fires is not considered to be part of any employee’s duties and must only be used to aid an escape” The policy doesn’t state anything about training staff in the use of fire extinguishers, so now I’m in a position where we have fire extinguishers everywhere but no person trained to use them because the policy is unambiguous. Other people have asked “Do we teach people to use fire extinguishers, or just to get out? At all past companies I’ve only trained in the latter”
What’s the point in having Fire extinguishers everywhere, investing the time in checking them regularly but no one trained to use them? How about Just Fire marshals being trained? I suppose it would be over the top to train the whole 200 staff in use of fire extinguishers?
Also can insurance dictate that we train people in the use of fire extinguishers even if the FRA doesn’t stipulate? Lots of questions
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Rank: Super forum user 
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They are in the workplace therefore they are work equipment therefore PUWER applies and people need training ... not to make them firefighters but to aid escape - as your policy says.
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 1 user thanked SNS for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I would say training competent people in the use of the extinguishers in required. Taking from the RRFSO 2005 (3) The responsible person must, where necessary— (a) take measures for fire-fighting in the premises, adapted to the nature of the activities carried on there and the size of the undertaking and of the premises concerned; (b) nominate competent persons to implement those measures and ensure that the number of such persons, their training and the equipment available to them are adequate, taking into account the size of, and the specific hazards involved in, the premises concerned; and (c) arrange any necessary contacts with external emergency services, particularly as regards fire-fighting, rescue work, first-aid and emergency medical care.
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2 users thanked George_Young for this useful post.
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PH2 on 01/02/2019(UTC), ttxela on 14/02/2020(UTC)
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Rank: Super forum user
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With respect, I don't quite see your point. The policy doesn't sound unambiguous, it says only use if trained. It is perfectly normal practice and always has been, to train fire marshals to use fire extinguishers, in fact it is normally included in fire marshall training. It helps give them a little confidence to take the lead in a fire situation. They may need to use them to enable escape of persons but only as a last resort. Other than that the advice should be to get out not try to fight fires. Buildings can be replaced and are insured, people cannot. You don't normally train everyone to use them.
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2 users thanked Dave5705 for this useful post.
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Rank: Forum user
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Mersey, if the Responsible Person has a policy that only trained staff will use extinguishers, that is reasonable and sufficient - notwithstanding the numbers trained and the quality of training needs to be to a standard. And there's the problem. You employer MUST train a suitable number of staff to perform that role. Have a look here at the CFOA Guidance to Enforcement Officers:
Nominated relevant persons should be able to tackle a fire if it is safe to do so and they know how to do it safely. They must not put themselves at risk to fight fire; their personal safety remains the priority. Nonetheless this priority must not be used by responsible persons to avoid compliance with this requirement. Many employers believe that to comply with this requirement involves a necessity to train some of their employees as fire-fighters. This is clearly not the case; and inspecting officers should be seeking compliance from employer responsible persons by training an adequate number of employees to undertake first aid fire-fighting duties and inherent in that training must be the teaching of employees to recognise when first-aid fire-fighting is or is not safe to implement. Inspectors will often encounter fire policies and procedures in which no-one is encouraged or trained to use fire-fighting equipment and which state that people should simply evacuate the premises. Such an approach is clearly contrary to the statement above, made by the DCLG but the impact of the approach is further considered for the information of inspectors and enforcing authorities.
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3 users thanked Messey for this useful post.
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SNS on 31/01/2019(UTC), PH2 on 01/02/2019(UTC), Mersey on 04/02/2019(UTC)
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Hi Messey, long time no .....................anything really.
Would you agree with this definition taken from the web:
"First aid firefighting can best be describedas extinguishing a fire in its initial stages by using whatever means
is readily available. Under certain conditions this could be as simple as shoveling dirt onto a small fire to put it out, or using a blanket to smother a flame by reducing oxygen!
I believe the first priority for anyone attempting to tackle a fire is their own personal safety, and if more than a single fire extinguisher is needed to extinguish a fire then no more should be used and evacuation is essential.
I agree that employees who will be expected to use fire extinguishers should be trained by a suitably certificated organisation, however (and you will like this one) what about retired and serving firefighters of various ranks who are employed as Casual Workers. would you expect them to receive training as above.
Some of them are still employed in variou ares of Fire Safety from FRS Fire Safety, through private company training fire and health & safety at a FRS training school to being employed as risk manager and carrying out risk assessments, including FRAs and training fire wardens.
Thanks
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1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Mersey. Your final lines include:
"Also can insurance dictate that we train people in the use of fire extinguishers even if the FRA doesn’t stipulate?"
By now you will have seen a few references to training emplolyees who are expected to use fire extinguishes, because the rrfso requires therefore if your fire risk assessment does not stipulate that it is because either you are assumed to know or the fire risk assesser has omotted that requirement.
The FRA is only as good as the assesser. I'll leave it there.
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1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
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Rank: Forum user
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We have two levels of fire extinguisher training.
Level 2 for fire wardens & staff who work in areas sightly higher risk (IT server rooms and workshops) Level 1 for those who are part of the IRT (Incident Response Team) and move in to deal with fires as they occur The input for each varies in detail as you would imagine, but the 'shape' of the learning is the same. I really do not think its rocket science knowing how to use an extinguisher or choosing the right type, in fact I get frustrated when I hear people make such a meal of it. They are big aerosol cans - how hard can it be? So that takes very little time on the courses.
Whereas the prioroty to me is knowing when NOT to use one, and providing skills to give the operator skills to complete dynamic risk assessments as they are using the extinguisher are the central core of our training. Hazard identification, smoke production and travel. keeping an escape route behind you and human response (flight/fight etc). So this is where we aim most of the input
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Originally Posted by: Messey  You employer MUST train a suitable number of staff to perform that role. Have a look here at the CFOA Guidance to Enforcement Officers:
Nominated relevant persons should be able to tackle a fire if it is safe to do so and they know how to do it safely. They must not put themselves at risk to fight fire; their personal safety remains the priority. Nonetheless this priority must not be used by responsible persons to avoid compliance with this requirement. Many employers believe that to comply with this requirement involves a necessity to train some of their employees as fire-fighters. This is clearly not the case; and inspecting officers should be seeking compliance from employer responsible persons by training an adequate number of employees to undertake first aid fire-fighting duties and inherent in that training must be the teaching of employees to recognise when first-aid fire-fighting is or is not safe to implement. Inspectors will often encounter fire policies and procedures in which no-one is encouraged or trained to use fire-fighting equipment and which state that people should simply evacuate the premises. Such an approach is clearly contrary to the statement above, made by the DCLG but the impact of the approach is further considered for the information of inspectors and enforcing authorities.
My problem with this is two-fold: first, the guidance doesn't say must, it says should, and there is a world of difference, and second, it doesn't in any way prescribe the nature of the 'training'.
So: do we have to give people hands-on practice in the use of fire-extinguishers? I don't think we do, and furthermore I have never advised this and I have never had this challenged by any fire service. Training can be recognition and use of an appropriate extinguisher for a given fire, hands-on is not necessary,
John
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