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Garryowen  
#1 Posted : 13 May 2019 08:57:06(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Garryowen

Hello

I work in the construction sector.  I'm interested in your experience in dealing with repeat offenders.  Why after signing off RAMS, attending Induction and Tool Box Talks, preparing SPAs etc some people just have to break the rules and take unnecessary risks.

I've had site personnel stood down by the main contractor for ignoring all of the above putting pressure on the project and remaining personnel.

Has anyone got links to information on behavioural / attitudinal safety and what make people tick?

Thanks in advance

fairlieg  
#2 Posted : 13 May 2019 09:26:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

Its hard to comment without knowing the context in which the rules are being broken. BBS folk would say name, blame, shame retrain etc, negative consiquence for "bad" or at risk behaviour positive for good etc. (not sure if you can tell I am not a fan of what BBS has to "Sell").

What have learned about how they do the work.  Have you asked them why they don't do it according to the "rules".  If your trying to find out what makes them tick thats usually a good place to start.  If the "rules" keep getting broken is it the people breaking them thats the problem or the rules themselves...

....if you keep doing more of the same but harder and not seeing the result you're expecting it might be time to try something different....

some places to go looking 

http://www.safetydifferently.com

http://preaccidentpodcast.podbean.com/

http://www.scheinocli.org/

http://erikhollnagel.com/books.html

http://www.mindtherisk.com/publications 

Edited by user 13 May 2019 09:26:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Garryowen on 13/05/2019(UTC)
MrBrightside  
#3 Posted : 13 May 2019 09:31:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrBrightside

Hi Garry,

People are driven by consequences, positive and negative. There can quite often be a positive reason for someone to do something unsafe.

Take speeding in a car for example, we know it’s illegal, we might get points, a fine or have a serious crash, but you know what we enjoy speeding and it gets us to where we want to go quicker. So even though we know the consequences, we weigh up the odd and take the risk. Getting caught might change our behaviour for a short while and then we just do it again.

The only way to get someone to change is to highlight the positive reasons not to speed, not the negative. Speeding and rushing is quite stressful, looking out for police and cameras and road rage increases, however if you leave just 5 min’s earlier and take your time, you will find you get less stress, less worries, save yourself money on fuel and less likely to get road rage.

Speak to the workers, get them to tell you why they are doing what they are doing, it can sometimes be that our processes are wrong or the PPE is uncomfortable. This can also have the benefit of changing behaviour by them telling you what they should be wearing PEE, what the hazards are it will get them thinking and an ask is always more powerful than a tell.

Good Luck

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A Kurdziel on 13/05/2019(UTC), Dave5705 on 12/06/2019(UTC)
Garryowen  
#4 Posted : 13 May 2019 09:41:55(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Garryowen

Fairleg, thanks for your reply.  I'm not a believer in rules for rules sake and always try to build a relationship with site personnel whom I consider as preofessional colleagues.  The rules I tend to adhere to are PPE, particularly glasses and hi vis.  

Recently we were working on a site with various other trades.  The main contractor was a stickler for ladder safety.  Work had to be performed from a podium ladder with the gate closed.  This was explained at induction, at TBTs and was included in all RAMS. I still had two guys stood down for breeches of the rule.  When asked why the reply was along the lines of "I forgot"

My question is why do some people ignore / forget safety rules.  I understand the root cause can be deep rooted and I'm not going to solve the issue totally.  I'm trying to achieve sensible H&S and treat people as adults.

fairlieg  
#5 Posted : 13 May 2019 09:59:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

Sounds like you need to get your leadership team more involved.  Some of these things are habit and creating the muscle memory.  I remember years ago we struggled to get anyone to wear eye protection.  we spent a lot of time as a leadership team working with the guys getting the right type and addressing all the concers they had about comfort weight fogging lenses etc and now its second nature.

It takes time, spend more time with them on the job (not just you, their supv. and managers) and work through the issues.  unfamiliar equipment like podiums as them what they need to help them remember, signage stickers etc.

it is important that the management get invovled it cost them money having to demob and mob folk because they forgot to wear their gloves and if everyone is banging on about it....many hands make light work

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A Kurdziel on 13/05/2019(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 13 May 2019 10:07:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Back to what #3 says: it even has a name ABC.

A=antecedents, what are the things leading up to the particular behaviour, this  is really down to the culture of the organisation,; do manager walk the walk as well as talk the talk? Are the rules sensible and proportionate and intended to get the job done safely bit without too much unnecessary hassle or are the just tick box fodder?  

B= Behaviour- actions that you are looking at and

C= what are the consequences? You can tell people that if you don’t do that this will happen but most of the time nothing happens and they get away with it.  You should, in an ideal world be getting people to do things for positive reasons not because of fear of being caught.  

Have you identified any reasons why they are not follow the rules, other than pure gittery? “I forgot” is not really a reason. Do the gates stop them doing something (or slow them down)? If something is seen as slowing them down do they lose out financial?  Do they get home quicker  if they cut corners etc?

Mark-W  
#7 Posted : 13 May 2019 10:28:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mark-W

I visited a site last year to conduct a visit to my engrs. As I was walking around the site with the PC's H&S manager we cam across a plasterer mixing his muck by machine.

He was asked to stop and go and get his RPE, his response, it's only going to take me 5mins more so no. After being asked again it turned into a full on shouting match. After what seemed like an age to me. The H&S manager pulled the plug from his electric mixer and escorted him to the site office, me in tow because I was being escorted around.

5 mins later the plasterer was escorted from site with a red card to his name to never return to this PC's sites ever again.

So even when asked nicely this tradesman defied the rules and paid the price. So it can't be down to education for some people, just sheer bloody mindedness

MrBrightside  
#8 Posted : 13 May 2019 11:17:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MrBrightside

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post

He was asked to stop and go and get his RPE, his response,

So even when asked nicely this tradesman defied the rules and paid the price. So it can't be down to education for some people, just sheer bloody mindedness

Was he asked or was he told 'stop what you are doing and go and put on your RPE'. Was he asked if he was aware of the need to wear RPE, why he should be wearing it, why he wasn't wearing it? This is a job he has done hundreds of times before and is still alive, so for him he can't see the point.

RPE can quite often be hot and uncomfortable, was this asked?

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A Kurdziel on 12/06/2019(UTC)
Mark-W  
#9 Posted : 13 May 2019 11:30:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mark-W

He was told to stop. On several occasions in the time that I was there. He was made aware of the inducrtionthat he'd received that it was site policy for RPE for mixing.

I don't agree with all of their PPE requirements either. 5point PPE, even for me who was just monitoring and chatting to engrs.

Funny thing is when you question the site H&S manager about the heirachy of controls and PPE being last resort, all you get is, H&S policy is set by head office, I just implement it.

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A Kurdziel on 12/06/2019(UTC)
Oxford  
#10 Posted : 11 June 2019 15:19:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Oxford

The rail industry (Network Rail specifically) use a behavioural safety approach to this issue through what they term the 'Fair Culture Flowchart'. It's designed as an investigatory, not not a disciplinary, tool but the outcome of the process could lead to disciplinary proceedings

There are a number of examples of the flowcharts available on google images, but Network Rail's own guidance document is freely available on the web and can be downloaded as a pdf document here:

https://safety.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/A-guide-to-using-the-fair-culture-flowchart.pdf

Its a very detailed document which is well worth reading even if you decide to approach the subject in a different way.

It does of course require managers and supervisors to have the right mindset, and in some cases undergo some 'reeducation' in order to take this approach!

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Dave5705 on 12/06/2019(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 11 June 2019 15:29:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Tim Marsh has put up some short videos he made in conjunction with SHP magazine. They mention some of these issues and how it might be possible to turn people around.

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Dave5705 on 12/06/2019(UTC)
jmaclaughlin  
#12 Posted : 12 June 2019 08:13:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jmaclaughlin

In this situation my first instinct would be to coach the supervisor or ganger, possibly you have had them some time & they are set in their ways?, get them doing the right thing and then leading by example can be quite effective.

You can achieve this by involving the supervisors in more of the decision making in what goes into the safe system of work and toolbox topics etc as opposed to  having them brief out TBTs compiled by someone else.

Without the supervisors buy in, nothing much is likely to change in my experience.

We found that once the supervisor/ganger turned up for work in full ppe, everybody else started following suit(pardon the pun) unprompted.

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A Kurdziel on 12/06/2019(UTC)
fairlieg  
#13 Posted : 12 June 2019 10:34:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fairlieg

Originally Posted by: Oxford Go to Quoted Post

The rail industry (Network Rail specifically) use a behavioural safety approach to this issue through what they term the 'Fair Culture Flowchart'. It's designed as an investigatory, not not a disciplinary, tool but the outcome of the process could lead to disciplinary proceedings

There are a number of examples of the flowcharts available on google images, but Network Rail's own guidance document is freely available on the web and can be downloaded as a pdf document here:

https://safety.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/A-guide-to-using-the-fair-culture-flowchart.pdf

Its a very detailed document which is well worth reading even if you decide to approach the subject in a different way.

It does of course require managers and supervisors to have the right mindset, and in some cases undergo some 'reeducation' in order to take this approach!

For anyone looking for more details take a look at Prof James Reason literature and Dekkers Just Culture

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A Kurdziel on 12/06/2019(UTC)
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