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mph  
#1 Posted : 13 June 2019 16:47:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mph

Good evening all

I am currently reviewing the situation regarding motor insurance cover for our employee's who use their personal cars for occasionally visiting venues that are not their normal place of work. This is for training courses and conferences. It would be my view that this could not be done if the employee only has social, domestic and pleasure cover plus commuting to and from their normal place of work and they would need to have business cover on their insurance.

A slight variation on this is travelling in their personal cars to and from occasional off site social events (parties, awards ceremonies etc). I'm less sure on the insurance situation with this.

I would very much welcome the thoughts and comments of forum members.

Thank you in advance.    

Edited by user 13 June 2019 16:49:40(UTC)  | Reason: Added words

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 13 June 2019 20:08:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Answering back to front "social occassion" fits most car insurance cover except awards ceremonies as these will likely be related to the business. Attending training is business related so if they do not hold business cover you either pay for a grey fleet insurance upgrade or factor transport (public or hire car) in to the training cost. We recently banned our accountant from calling at the post office on their way home from work ( yes it is on the route between work and home) because their new policy has no business cover - instead they now make a working hours trip in a company car.

Edited by user 13 June 2019 20:31:38(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 18/06/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 18/06/2019(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 13 June 2019 20:08:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Answering back to front "social occassion" fits most car insurance cover except awards ceremonies as these will likely be related to the business. Attending training is business related so if they do not hold business cover you either pay for a grey fleet insurance upgrade or factor transport (public or hire car) in to the training cost. We recently banned our accountant from calling at the post office on their way home from work ( yes it is on the route between work and home) because their new policy has no business cover - instead they now make a working hours trip in a company car.

Edited by user 13 June 2019 20:31:38(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 18/06/2019(UTC), A Kurdziel on 18/06/2019(UTC)
douglas.dick  
#4 Posted : 14 June 2019 09:21:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
douglas.dick

As above

jodieclark1510  
#5 Posted : 14 June 2019 11:29:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jodieclark1510

My insurance went down by raound £100 when I added business use onto my insurance- some of your colleagues may benefit from this depending ont heir insurer and their driving history?

Zyggy  
#6 Posted : 14 June 2019 14:02:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zyggy

mph - I concur with your interpretation that business cover should be in place for the scenarios outlined. With regard to Jodie's comment, when I carried out a check of my team for licence/insurance/MOT compliance, one of the recent employees did not have business cover & when she looked into it, her premium was reduced as well!
ricci  
#7 Posted : 14 June 2019 20:24:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ricci

Insurance cover for commuting normally covers travel from home to a single place of work. So if they drive straight to the course and home they are covered, They cannot go to another work location after going to the course even their usual work location. 

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 14 June 2019 20:42:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

A single place of work is what it says on the tin - not wherever you travel on a particular day. Read the exclusions carefully as nearly all insurers start with "not in connection with any occupation". Attending training is "in connection with"
Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 14 June 2019 20:42:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

A single place of work is what it says on the tin - not wherever you travel on a particular day. Read the exclusions carefully as nearly all insurers start with "not in connection with any occupation". Attending training is "in connection with"
ricci  
#10 Posted : 14 June 2019 21:15:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ricci

Attending work is in connecting with an occupation. You may travel to a single place of work and back. It does not state the address of that place of work. On the day of the course it a different place of work but still a single place. You cannot go to your normal work and then travel on or if the course finishes early go back to your usual place of work. I have checked with my company and that is what they said.

Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 14 June 2019 21:37:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Good luck with your claim on the day of your accident when you were attending a training course away from your normal place of employment. There were a lot of possibilities under older policies - as the insurers try to stay competitive a lot of what people were and still believe they are covered for have vanished in the small print and moved to policy add-ons. Going to a regular place of work is commuting anything else is business travel ergo HMRC take my journey to work as private mileage but if i go to a course it is business mileage. Your insurance may be as you describe not everyone else's is.
Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 14 June 2019 21:37:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Good luck with your claim on the day of your accident when you were attending a training course away from your normal place of employment. There were a lot of possibilities under older policies - as the insurers try to stay competitive a lot of what people were and still believe they are covered for have vanished in the small print and moved to policy add-ons. Going to a regular place of work is commuting anything else is business travel ergo HMRC take my journey to work as private mileage but if i go to a course it is business mileage. Your insurance may be as you describe not everyone else's is.
Bigmac1  
#13 Posted : 17 June 2019 08:31:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

Originally Posted by: ricci Go to Quoted Post

Insurance cover for commuting normally covers travel from home to a single place of work. So if they drive straight to the course and home they are covered, They cannot go to another work location after going to the course even their usual work location. 

Incorrect

If it is not your usual place of work then you are not covered and need business insurance.

Dave5705  
#14 Posted : 17 June 2019 08:57:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Originally Posted by: Bigmac1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ricci Go to Quoted Post

Insurance cover for commuting normally covers travel from home to a single place of work. So if they drive straight to the course and home they are covered, They cannot go to another work location after going to the course even their usual work location. 

Incorrect

If it is not your usual place of work then you are not covered and need business insurance.

Agreed. I recently went into this in great depth.

We have actually taken out a grey fleet whole staff occasional use policy which was remarkably affordable, and took away the headache of trying to keep records of staff insurance. Well worth it. IMHO

regards 

George_Young  
#15 Posted : 17 June 2019 09:22:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
George_Young

Originally Posted by: Bigmac1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ricci Go to Quoted Post

Insurance cover for commuting normally covers travel from home to a single place of work. So if they drive straight to the course and home they are covered, They cannot go to another work location after going to the course even their usual work location. 

Incorrect

If it is not your usual place of work then you are not covered and need business insurance.

My insurance covers me for commuting to other venues such as training courses, however, it is directly from "home" to the place of commuting. not from home, to work, to training venue, etc

Dave5705  
#16 Posted : 17 June 2019 09:31:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

There are variations in cover, but generally, I think Bigmac is right. It isn't worth the risk IMHO

Roundtuit  
#17 Posted : 17 June 2019 10:07:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Anyone believing any venue is covered by a commuting policy should very carefully read all their current insurnace documents - bit of research arcross the web indicates the common terminology in commuting is "to and from A pemanent place of employment"

It also appears that some insurers are removing the automatic right to drive other cars under the terms

Roundtuit  
#18 Posted : 17 June 2019 10:07:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Anyone believing any venue is covered by a commuting policy should very carefully read all their current insurnace documents - bit of research arcross the web indicates the common terminology in commuting is "to and from A pemanent place of employment"

It also appears that some insurers are removing the automatic right to drive other cars under the terms

George_Young  
#19 Posted : 17 June 2019 10:17:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
George_Young

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Anyone believing any venue is covered by a commuting policy should very carefully read all their current insurnace documents - bit of research arcross the web indicates the common terminology in commuting is "to and from A pemanent place of employment"

It also appears that some insurers are removing the automatic right to drive other cars under the terms

Venue may have been the wrong word on my behalf, my policy states that I'm covered travel to different places of work but only one place of work per day

I have seen a few people also make the mistake of being able to drive any other car as their as are fully comp and believed this covered them. I do have that feature on my insurance, but I can not drive another vehicle that is registered at the same address (ie the wife's car) on my insurance.

ttxela  
#20 Posted : 17 June 2019 10:21:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: Dave5705 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigmac1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ricci Go to Quoted Post

Insurance cover for commuting normally covers travel from home to a single place of work. So if they drive straight to the course and home they are covered, They cannot go to another work location after going to the course even their usual work location. 

Incorrect

If it is not your usual place of work then you are not covered and need business insurance.

Agreed. I recently went into this in great depth.

We have actually taken out a grey fleet whole staff occasional use policy which was remarkably affordable, and took away the headache of trying to keep records of staff insurance. Well worth it. IMHO

regards 

I'm rather interested in this 'grey fleet' cover as it relates to a question I had myself a while ago. If I understand correctly this is a policy the company takes out which covers employees to use their own vehicles for company use, effectively bridging the gap for when they wouldn't be covered by thier own car insurance.

I was recently advised by our head office that we have a policy like this which applies worldwide and that people didn't need to extend their personal policies for business use for occasional errands (such as taking the post to the post office, attending conferences etc. This raised a few question for me which I have yet to be answered and I'd be interested in the response from someone who has experience of them. Imagine a number of (fictional) scenarios;

  • My car is in the garage for the day so I borrow my wifes Ferrari to come to work as I am able to drive on my policy. A parcel needs posting so I take it into town and skid into the ditch - will the companys insurance pay out for a new Ferrari for the wife?
  • My car is a pristime example of an older classic and I have protected my investment by having an agreed value on my policy rather than risking the assessors valuation in the event of a write off. Again I'm off to post a parcel and end up in the ditch. Will the company insurance honour the agreed value?
  • My car has undergone some performance modifications which I have had to inform my personal insurance company of. Again I wind up in the ditch on my ill fated postal mission, will the company insurance cover me?

Any advice?

achrn  
#21 Posted : 17 June 2019 10:44:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: ttxela Go to Quoted Post
I'd be interested in the response from someone who has experience of them. Imagine a number of (fictional) scenarios;

You can only get answers to them by reading the policy.  There's no such thing as standard car insurance - every company has their own foibles.  I would expect fleet insurance even more so.  If your head office policy is third party cover, for example, it will be legal for you to take the parcel to the post office, and the company will be covered, but you won't get any payout in any of your scenarios.

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
ttxela on 17/06/2019(UTC)
ttxela  
#22 Posted : 17 June 2019 10:55:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: achrn Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: ttxela Go to Quoted Post
I'd be interested in the response from someone who has experience of them. Imagine a number of (fictional) scenarios;

You can only get answers to them by reading the policy.  There's no such thing as standard car insurance - every company has their own foibles.  I would expect fleet insurance even more so.  If your head office policy is third party cover, for example, it will be legal for you to take the parcel to the post office, and the company will be covered, but you won't get any payout in any of your scenarios.

Yes, head office are not proving to be particularly forthcoming, I'm continuing to recommend everyone has their own cover!

Roundtuit  
#23 Posted : 17 June 2019 11:18:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sure this was recently discussed

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/t128379-Company-Provided-Insurance

whilst not necessarily illegal there are the issues of who is insuring what at the time of incident (and whether or not the existence of one invalidates the other) making for an even more protracted claim than dealing with your own insurer.

Roundtuit  
#24 Posted : 17 June 2019 11:18:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sure this was recently discussed

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/t128379-Company-Provided-Insurance

whilst not necessarily illegal there are the issues of who is insuring what at the time of incident (and whether or not the existence of one invalidates the other) making for an even more protracted claim than dealing with your own insurer.

Hsquared14  
#25 Posted : 17 June 2019 12:01:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

Unless they have cover including Business Use then I would think in the situations you are talking about they will not be insured.  Check with your fleet insurer who will be able to give you the advice you need to pass on to your employees.

ttxela  
#26 Posted : 17 June 2019 13:20:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Sure this was recently discussed

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/t128379-Company-Provided-Insurance

whilst not necessarily illegal there are the issues of who is insuring what at the time of incident (and whether or not the existence of one invalidates the other) making for an even more protracted claim than dealing with your own insurer.

Aye, that were me. But some people in this thread seemed to have direct experience of such a policy.

ttxela  
#27 Posted : 17 June 2019 13:30:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14 Go to Quoted Post

Unless they have cover including Business Use then I would think in the situations you are talking about they will not be insured.  Check with your fleet insurer who will be able to give you the advice you need to pass on to your employees.

Not as easy as you'd have thought it might be unfortunately since our insurance is arranged by a head office abroad.

In my case the query arose because an internal document was issued stating rather simplistically that people no longer needed to cover there personal vehicles for business use since this complany policy was in place and naming me as the person to talk to about it in the event of an accident!

This was somewhat of a suprise to me and I did suspect, as seems borne out by advice here, that the situation was not as simple as all that. An ordinary employee reading the document may be reassured that all is well for him to whizz off in the car he drove to work in to perform a business errand under the protective umbrella of the company policy whereas in fact, all he has is the minimum legal cover and should he suffer a personal loss he would be effectively on his own.

Fortunately this document has not found its way into general circulation and I shall do my best to ensure it doesn't!

ttxela  
#28 Posted : 17 June 2019 13:37:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ttxela

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

It also appears that some insurers are removing the automatic right to drive other cars under the terms

Yes, This is, I believe becoming more common.

When I bought a car for my 16 year old daughter ready for her to learn to drive at 17 I needed to collect it from the seller. No problem I thought, I can drive it third party under my comprehensive policy. Not so said the insurance company, the vehicle you drive needs to be covered by someone elses insurance for this to be valid. Even if my daughter had managed to insure it at 16 (there were issues with this as well) I still could not drive it as this third party cover does not apply to vehicles owned by family members.

In the end I had to arrange a seperate temporary insurance to drive it the 30 or so miles home.

Dave5705  
#29 Posted : 17 June 2019 15:10:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

To go back to the OP and the questions asked, these are my understandings of the situation.

The significant word in the name of the policy is occasional. It will cover any member of staff to drive any vehicle for which they already have insurance cover in place (or are named on in the event of spouse/partner) but where that cover is limited to SDP and not business AND the travel was an occasional use. It is comprehensive, so in those examples, yes your wife's Ferrari would be covered if you were a named driver on her comprehensive policy, yes a modified car would be covered if your own comprehensive policy covered the modifications, and yes your agreed value would be honoured so long as your own comprehensive policy included it specifically. The caveat being the trip would need to have been something not regular, say attending a training course, or an ad-hoc unusual event like an emergency hospital run or something you are unlikely to need to do more than two or three times a year. Occasional.

I do use my own vehicle all the time and have business use included, naturally.

It is not intended to replace personal insurance with business cover, and we insist on that for any staff who do use their car for work purposes more than a few times per year, and we keep records and take our duty of care seriously, which is why I decided to propose the cover, as it effectively 'mops up' any staff who might find themselves needing to use their car and they/us not being sure if they are covered. It would not cover for example the weekly post office run.

Ours is specifically for schools/colleges/educational establishments and really is inexpensive for the peace of mind it gives. I just think of it as an extra level of assurance for our liability, particularly for training courses or the odd meeting.

Roundtuit  
#30 Posted : 17 June 2019 18:54:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

So i will dare ask about your grey fleet policy - have you 100% verified there is absolutely no incompatibility between this grey insurance and EVERY individuals private insurance, that when they are "on business" they are fully covered to the extent of their private policy" and that if it is a business claim is made your grey insurer is not seeking cover from others? Otherwise this inexpensive cover is actually just a financial loss No it would not cover another car nor would it cover a classic to stated value the total liability always resides at "market value" - this is why they sell "gap" insurance to buyers of new cars as at purchase a new car immediately looses a few thousand in value so to replace the car as new versus market you need the gap covered. Over the years I have had many a protracted argument with underwriters about true market value rather than what they are offering ergo if i am not in a company car it will always be a hire car and absolutely never my own vehicle for business travel.
Roundtuit  
#31 Posted : 17 June 2019 18:54:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

So i will dare ask about your grey fleet policy - have you 100% verified there is absolutely no incompatibility between this grey insurance and EVERY individuals private insurance, that when they are "on business" they are fully covered to the extent of their private policy" and that if it is a business claim is made your grey insurer is not seeking cover from others? Otherwise this inexpensive cover is actually just a financial loss No it would not cover another car nor would it cover a classic to stated value the total liability always resides at "market value" - this is why they sell "gap" insurance to buyers of new cars as at purchase a new car immediately looses a few thousand in value so to replace the car as new versus market you need the gap covered. Over the years I have had many a protracted argument with underwriters about true market value rather than what they are offering ergo if i am not in a company car it will always be a hire car and absolutely never my own vehicle for business travel.
Dave5705  
#32 Posted : 18 June 2019 06:41:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Dave5705

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post
So i will dare ask about your grey fleet policy - have you 100% verified there is absolutely no incompatibility between this grey insurance and EVERY individuals private insurance, that when they are "on business" they are fully covered to the extent of their private policy" and that if it is a business claim is made your grey insurer is not seeking cover from others? Otherwise this inexpensive cover is actually just a financial loss No it would not cover another car nor would it cover a classic to stated value the total liability always resides at "market value" - this is why they sell "gap" insurance to buyers of new cars as at purchase a new car immediately looses a few thousand in value so to replace the car as new versus market you need the gap covered. Over the years I have had many a protracted argument with underwriters about true market value rather than what they are offering ergo if i am not in a company car it will always be a hire car and absolutely never my own vehicle for business travel.

Hi Roundtuit.

I understand your concerns, and I can only tell you what I have been told by the insurers, and my understanding is that this is a form of gap insurance in itself. There is no seeking cover from other insurers because the grey insurer will only cover in the event of the users own insurance not being sufficient, and its purpose is to protect the organisation

As for the classic/modified/agreed value questions, I rang and spoke to the company yesterday, and those are the answers I received, that they would honour whatever insurance cover the individual had in place on the vehicle for private use. Now they may be lying, or misinformed, and you are right, maybe I should put them in writing and get written statements in return, but I can only tell you what they have said. 

I'm not an insurance expert, we have to take what the company tell us and whatever else research throws up, but they are a reputable company (Royal Alliance if I remember rightly) Well if 'reputable' and 'insurance company' are not mutually exclusive terms these days! My father used to say that insurance types are those who will only lend you an umbrella when it's not raining.

My feeling is that if I can help protect the organisation against accidental uninsured driving by our staff then a small outlay is reasonable, but I share your concerns and I will email the company specific questions and wait for a response. Thanks for raising my awareness further, I intend to bolster our procedures to make them more robust anyway, and I'll post whatever I get by return from the insurers for information.

Mark-W  
#33 Posted : 18 June 2019 07:12:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mark-W

Business insurance is a nightmare. I run my own company, have a company car. It's a LAndrover Defender Utility. It's a commercial vehicle. I called my insurance company, informed them of the vehicle, gave them my company name and detials, company bank details for payment. Happily drove it for work for 18 months, then a review of vehicle insurances by a contractor, I supplied a copy of my insurance certificate and it turned out I was insured as a SDP policy not a commercial policy which I had specified. 

So despite me informing them of exactly what I had and what I wanted to do they still messed it up.

Roundtuit  
#34 Posted : 18 June 2019 07:51:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sorry Mark they didn't mess up - it is up to the insured to check their documentation on receipt to ensure it covers the correct risks. No good finding out the day you want to claim.

Is how we spotted Mrs R despite remaining with the same insurer for the last three years had suddenly lost other car cover until they were challenged to put it back free of charge.

Roundtuit  
#35 Posted : 18 June 2019 07:51:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Sorry Mark they didn't mess up - it is up to the insured to check their documentation on receipt to ensure it covers the correct risks. No good finding out the day you want to claim.

Is how we spotted Mrs R despite remaining with the same insurer for the last three years had suddenly lost other car cover until they were challenged to put it back free of charge.

Mark-W  
#36 Posted : 18 June 2019 08:18:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mark-W

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Sorry Mark they didn't mess up - it is up to the insured to check their documentation on receipt to ensure it covers the correct risks. No good finding out the day you want to claim.

Is how we spotted Mrs R despite remaining with the same insurer for the last three years had suddenly lost other car cover until they were challenged to put it back free of charge.

You'd assume that the insurance company would provide you with the cover you asked for. I know I should of checked, hindsight being a wonderful thing but the fact it was a policy in a business name, I was insuring a commercial vehicle and bank payments were from a business account you'd think that they would realise it was a business policy not SDP.

Live and learn and luckily I didn't need to claim 

Acorns  
#37 Posted : 18 June 2019 16:35:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Acorns

This has been heavily discussed before.  There has been mention of gap insurance, Company liability cover for employee's on 3rd party basis (need to know what that really means as it makes a differecne if you're used to fully comp), short term cover for a single journey.  We know we can get insured for pretty much anything - at a price. Equally, every policy is slightly different, whether you answered a question slightly different, the insurer gives you / me something as a buy-in, our cover will vary.  It can be a pain, but the headlines really need to be checked carefully.  I'd advise anyone checking for grey fleet, that they have a list of relevant questions they ask themselves when reading the employee's cover.  If business use isn't glaringly obvious, then ask the employee and if still in doubt, get them to ask their insurer.  Sometimes it really can be simpler to provide a company vehicle. One of the almost universal conditions these days is the one mentioned above, that if you wish to drive a 3rd party vehicle, then that vehicle MUST also be insured so as to 'activate' your cover.

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