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MrB-Dalton  
#1 Posted : 11 January 2020 13:23:20(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MrB-Dalton

Employer requested Employees to replenish PPE stock on business cards.

Employee purchased wrong glove, had an accident, resulting in RIDDOR and Surgery to Tendons in hand.

Who is reponsible?

Employer did not train in PPE selection.

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 11 January 2020 14:55:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Employer. Only exception is where employee and employer are the same person
thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
MrB-Dalton on 11/01/2020(UTC), MrB-Dalton on 11/01/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 11 January 2020 14:55:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Employer. Only exception is where employee and employer are the same person
thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
MrB-Dalton on 11/01/2020(UTC), MrB-Dalton on 11/01/2020(UTC)
MrB-Dalton  
#4 Posted : 11 January 2020 15:22:41(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MrB-Dalton

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post
Employer. Only exception is where employee and employer are the same person

Thank you for your reply. Would this solely relate to Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992?

chris.packham  
#5 Posted : 11 January 2020 22:24:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Selection of the correct personal protective equipment must be done by someone with the appropriate level of knowledge and training to ensure that what is selected is fit for the purpose for which it is being provided by the employer and that it is used in a manner that ensures that it provides adequate protection. 

As an example, with gloves provided for protection against chemicals my experience is that very few really understand the complexities associated with the level of protection that a glove can provide. It is common to find gloves being worn that are not providing the protection that the employer believes is being obtained, simple because whoever decided which glove and how it would be used was unaware of the complexity associated with determining this. The same glove can perform differently as protection against the same chemical depending upon circumstances under which it is being used.

How would you expect the employee to know which item of PPE to purchase and how it will perform?

Whatever the regulations say, if you wish to protect your workforce properly selection, provision and use of PPE must be controlled by someone who understands what they are doing. Appropriate workforce training is a regulatory requirement as is suitable supervision, and, where chemical are concerned, health surveillance (see COSHH ACoP 6th edition).

thanks 1 user thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
MrB-Dalton on 11/01/2020(UTC)
MrB-Dalton  
#6 Posted : 11 January 2020 22:34:47(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MrB-Dalton

Originally Posted by: chris.packham Go to Quoted Post

Selection of the correct personal protective equipment must be done by someone with the appropriate level of knowledge and training to ensure that what is selected is fit for the purpose for which it is being provided by the employer and that it is used in a manner that ensures that it provides adequate protection. 

As an example, with gloves provided for protection against chemicals my experience is that very few really understand the complexities associated with the level of protection that a glove can provide. It is common to find gloves being worn that are not providing the protection that the employer believes is being obtained, simple because whoever decided which glove and how it would be used was unaware of the complexity associated with determining this. The same glove can perform differently as protection against the same chemical depending upon circumstances under which it is being used.

How would you expect the employee to know which item of PPE to purchase and how it will perform?

Whatever the regulations say, if you wish to protect your workforce properly selection, provision and use of PPE must be controlled by someone who understands what they are doing. Appropriate workforce training is a regulatory requirement as is suitable supervision, and, where chemical are concerned, health surveillance (see COSHH ACoP 6th edition).

Thank you. It's very kind of you to reply with such detail

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 12 January 2020 11:28:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The employer is meant to undertake the risk assessment that would determine if PPE is a control measure for the work and if so what type of equipment would be required. Where they do not have sufficient personal knowledge and or experience they are meant to engage the services of a competent person e.g. hiring an H&S professional or using a consultant.

Determination of, selection, purchasing etc. are all matters that the employer should put in place suitable control arrangements. Employers duties are scattered throughout the Health and Safety at Work Act and all the supporting and enacting regulations including PPE, COSHH, PUWER, LOLER, DSE.......

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 12 January 2020 11:28:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The employer is meant to undertake the risk assessment that would determine if PPE is a control measure for the work and if so what type of equipment would be required. Where they do not have sufficient personal knowledge and or experience they are meant to engage the services of a competent person e.g. hiring an H&S professional or using a consultant.

Determination of, selection, purchasing etc. are all matters that the employer should put in place suitable control arrangements. Employers duties are scattered throughout the Health and Safety at Work Act and all the supporting and enacting regulations including PPE, COSHH, PUWER, LOLER, DSE.......

MrB-Dalton  
#9 Posted : 12 January 2020 12:41:27(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MrB-Dalton

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

The employer is meant to undertake the risk assessment that would determine if PPE is a control measure for the work and if so what type of equipment would be required. Where they do not have sufficient personal knowledge and or experience they are meant to engage the services of a competent person e.g. hiring an H&S professional or using a consultant.

Determination of, selection, purchasing etc. are all matters that the employer should put in place suitable control arrangements. Employers duties are scattered throughout the Health and Safety at Work Act and all the supporting and enacting regulations including PPE, COSHH, PUWER, LOLER, DSE.......

The Risk Assessment was filled out by the employee in this case, he was not trained in. The employee thought the gloves he was wearing would be sufficent until the accident.

Brilliant, thank you for the information.

peter gotch  
#10 Posted : 12 January 2020 12:46:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

B - on the assumption that this scenario might well lead to a civil claim, there are multiple areas of legislation and multiple duty holders including those on the injured employee (and any other employee involved in the decision making process).

There might a degree of contributory negligence on the employee that might lead to a reduction in the award resulting from a claim, but this would depend on how much the employee ought to have known about what PPE was needed. You've not told us what any risk assessment for the task (or tasks) set out, but unless this was very specific as to the type of glove needed, and with your comment that the employee had not been trained in PPE selection, then any contributory negligence would probably be deemed very, very minimal.

If the employee cannot resolve this amicably with their employer, if that employee is a member of a Trade Union, then the TU is perhaps the next place to go. Could get much more authoritative guidance than we could provide here.

All this is also dependent on the assumption that the PPE that was bought and used was not suitable for its purpose, noting that PPE is the "last line of defence" and that it is possible that even with the right PPE the accident might still have been possible and that in a very few occasions, the accident was simply that - with no "reasonably practicable" precautions being available to prevent it. (Assuming that you are in the UK or some other jurisdication where most health and safety law is subject to the test of reasonable practicability)

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MrB-Dalton on 13/01/2020(UTC)
MrB-Dalton  
#11 Posted : 12 January 2020 12:52:36(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MrB-Dalton

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

B - on the assumption that this scenario might well lead to a civil claim, there are multiple areas of legislation and multiple duty holders including those on the injured employee (and any other employee involved in the decision making process).

There might a degree of contributory negligence on the employee that might lead to a reduction in the award resulting from a claim, but this would depend on how much the employee ought to have known about what PPE was needed. You've not told us what any risk assessment for the task (or tasks) set out, but unless this was very specific as to the type of glove needed, and with your comment that the employee had not been trained in PPE selection, then any contributory negligence would probably be deemed very, very minimal.

If the employee cannot resolve this amicably with their employer, if that employee is a member of a Trade Union, then the TU is perhaps the next place to go. Could get much more authoritative guidance than we could provide here.

All this is also dependent on the assumption that the PPE that was bought and used was not suitable for its purpose, noting that PPE is the "last line of defence" and that it is possible that even with the right PPE the accident might still have been possible and that in a very few occasions, the accident was simply that - with no "reasonably practicable" precautions being available to prevent it. (Assuming that you are in the UK or some other jurisdication where most health and safety law is subject to the test of reasonable practicability)

MrB-Dalton  
#12 Posted : 12 January 2020 12:58:49(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MrB-Dalton

Risk assessments was filled out by Employee stating the PPE was. Due to injury on the back of the hand - Employee was wearing a glove without back of hand protection the employee would have still likely sustained the injury.

I appreciate your explanation.

craigroberts76  
#13 Posted : 13 January 2020 09:49:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
craigroberts76

the right type of glove needs to come from employer in risk assessment (or outsourced to a competent person), employee should have received training about their job, the risks and how the PPE works.

If the wrong glove was selected and used in the RAMS then thats the employers fault, if the employee chose not to use that glove and used a different type then they are to blame BUT there could still be a case against the employer as they were not supervised correctly or training was insufficient.

If the employee knew the risks they should have had the knowledge to decide if the glove was suitable, and to carry on working, or not and stopped and questioned the glove.

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MrB-Dalton on 13/01/2020(UTC)
kmason83  
#14 Posted : 13 January 2020 10:59:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kmason83

Regulation 4 of the PPE regs is worth looking at here but having seen a simular case in court I can say that this will if persued get chalked up to failure under Mangment of health and safety regs R 3 and possibly 10, and ultimatley section 2 HSWA.  Any civil action made here would not give rise to criminal action but employer would be accountable based on what you have said being a full picture. At best you may get contributory if it did get infront of a judge but depends on other circumstances. I employee is asked to undertake risk assessment what is Health and safety practitioner doing? 

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MrB-Dalton on 13/01/2020(UTC)
MrB-Dalton  
#15 Posted : 13 January 2020 12:03:57(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MrB-Dalton

The Employer is one of those to delegate everything to Employee - e.g quotes, risk assessments etc.

Thanks for your assistance.

chris.packham  
#16 Posted : 13 January 2020 12:18:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

One thing that the employer cannot delegate to his employees is his ultimate responsibility for compliance with the provisions of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. He can delegate the actual work involved, for example in risk assessment, but not the responsibility for ensuring that this is done correctly. He also has a duty to ensure that anyone delegated to carry out such as activity is competent to do so, i.e. has undergone the appropriate training and has the relevant experience and expertise. 

A Kurdziel  
#17 Posted : 13 January 2020 12:25:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The employer is basically responsible for everything. He can delegate some of the individual tasks to employees but ultimately he carries the can. If he does delegate he must be certain that the person he delegates to, is capable and competent to do the task.  Getting employees to do their own risk assessment  is not unusual, nor is getting  the employee to pay for PPE  with the company credit card but they need to demonstrate that  a) the employee was competent to do the risk assessment  ( I notice that the replies keep saying “fill in the risk assessment ” implying that it is more of tick box exercise rather than a proper risk assessment ) b) the person has the capability eg  financial  authority to carry out the actions required by the risk assessment  and SSOW  established by the risk assessment  and c)  people have had  sufficient information, supervision and training d) somebody monitors this process to make sure it is working correctly, which is where H&S come into it.

CptBeaky  
#18 Posted : 13 January 2020 12:37:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Where was the supervision? Surely someone competent should have checked the PPE before the employee used it? When an employee purchases any PPE the first thing I do is ensure it meets the standards needed, before use! Sometimes this might be a case of the employee linking to the product via email etc, or dropping off the data sheet. It would have taken 60 seconds to check.

So in an nutshell, yes the employer is responsible. They should of had a process to ensure the correct PPE was used, with a failsafe to prevent the wrong PPE being used.

SteveL  
#19 Posted : 13 January 2020 12:41:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SteveL

Few questions regarding this,

Had PPE been previously been issued, and the requirement to replenish was just getting the same?

To replenish stock would indicate previous use.  

Was the injured person competent in the work they were undertaking? Had they previous experience of the work being undertaken?

HSE recommends consulting workforce with regards to risk assessments, had they been consulted previously?

If an employer has handed over card then it suggests employee is known and valued/trusted.

As others have stated ultimate responsabilty with employer, but would consider contributory neglagence for a competent employee. 

A Kurdziel  
#20 Posted : 13 January 2020 15:33:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

If this is a claim, I will be negotiated by your insurer and the claimant’s lawyers. It won’t go to court and there won’t be much a discount for contributory negligence by the claimant.

This is because the claimant was not on a frolic of their own but clearly working within what passed for a safe system of work. It was at fault, for reasons discussed, and that is down to the employer.

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