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RayRB2014  
#1 Posted : 30 March 2020 10:00:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RayRB2014

Hi - could someone help me here please

We are appointed as PC for alterations & extension to an existing large domestic house, the client has appointed and PD, PD has issued Pre-Construction Information to us.

PCI notes that there has been no Asbestos survey carried out and states that we should take car during demolition or alterations and any suspected materials must cease work and report to PD

I have only ever worked on commercial projects where we always have Asbestos R&D survey before works start, but I am not sure the rules arround domestic properties.

Are we ok to start work on the project (after lockdown before I get abuse) if our workers have had current Asbestos Awareness training and they use caution when dismantling or removing items, opening floors etc?

Centurion  
#2 Posted : 30 March 2020 12:57:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Centurion

I would always go with an Asbestos R&D Survey in all such works as it is simply the best course of positive planning.

Domestic properties should not be regarded as different. 

DaveDowan  
#3 Posted : 30 March 2020 13:51:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaveDowan

I Agree with Centurion, we will always carry out an asbestos risk assessment ( age of building , materials etc, ) and in addition ask the occupier . If there is doubt or RA indicates it we will survey take samples etc before construction starts.

RayRB2014  
#4 Posted : 30 March 2020 14:06:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RayRB2014

Thank you both for your input on this, my MD is unlikley to pay for his own survey and the client does not have one, my original question is can we start work without one?

I have asked for one but I may not get one which is why I am asking can we legally start work without one?

Centurion  
#5 Posted : 30 March 2020 14:19:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Centurion

RayRB2014  
#6 Posted : 30 March 2020 14:41:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RayRB2014

Centurion - Thanks

The problem with that article is that its not fully correct, it does quote the wording from CAR 2012 about duty holders and the need to assess materials but CAR 2012 only applies to non-domestic proerties and common areas of domestic properties.

Thats my main issue, if CAR 2012 applied in this instance I could force client to get an R&D survey but unfortunatly CAR 2012 doesnt apply in this instance therefore Im kinda stuck, the only thing I have is our duties under HASAW 

Centurion  
#7 Posted : 30 March 2020 15:12:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Centurion

As CDM 2015 now covers all construction work,including domestic,could this now be interpreted as exceeding CAR 2012?

What is the actual extent of the demolition and refurb work of your project? 

RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 31 March 2020 08:27:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

The problem with CAR 2012 is that it concerns non-domestic properties (Reg 4.) however, there is overlapping legislation which will apply e.g. HSWA s2&3 and CDM 2015 (Reg 11).

Why CAR only included non-domestic properties is a mystery, but clearly it is inadequate especially since domestic projects are now included in CDM and CAR needs to be amended.

The choices are simple, ask the PD for asbestos related information. If none provided, you continue at your own risk or pay for a R&D survey and charge it to the client, assuming they will pay for it of course.   

RayRB2014  
#9 Posted : 31 March 2020 08:38:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RayRB2014

Thank you for your replies

RayRapp - I did think our options were to carry out our own survey or proceed at our risk

I emailed PD yesterday and he suggested we get a quote for the areas we need - i can pursue this as ultimitly i dont really care who pays for it wether it is our company or the client

RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 31 March 2020 20:20:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Robert, a R&D survey for a limited area should cost no more than £200-300. A relatively small cost for some peace of mind.

Bigmac1  
#11 Posted : 01 April 2020 14:42:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

"92. Note that even where the duty to manage under regulation 4 does not apply, Section 3 of the HSW Act does apply to anyone conducting a business, such as landlords of domestic premises. The section 3 duty stipulates that an employer or self-employed person must ensure so far as is reasonably practicable that the conduct of their undertaking does not present a risk to the health and safety of people who are not their employees." 

Extract from L143 

Caboche33383  
#12 Posted : 01 April 2020 17:18:57(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Caboche33383

I don't normally post here, however I would refer you to Regulation 5(1) of the CAR 2012:

(1) An employer must not undertake work in demolition, maintenance, or any other work which exposes or is liable to expose employees of that employer to asbestos in respect of any premises unless either—

(a) that employer has carried out a suitable and sufficient assessment as to whether asbestos, what type of asbestos, contained in what material and in what condition is present or is liable to be present in those premises; or

(b) if there is doubt as to whether asbestos is present in those premises that employer—

(i) assumes that asbestos is present, and that it is not chrysotile alone, and

(ii) observes the applicable provisions of these Regulations.

You are presumably an employer so it is your duty to undertake the survey

Hope this helps

thanks 2 users thanked Caboche33383 for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 01/04/2020(UTC), Kate on 02/04/2020(UTC)
Bigmac1  
#13 Posted : 02 April 2020 10:30:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

Originally Posted by: Caboche33383 Go to Quoted Post

I don't normally post here, however I would refer you to Regulation 5(1) of the CAR 2012:

(1) An employer must not undertake work in demolition, maintenance, or any other work which exposes or is liable to expose employees of that employer to asbestos in respect of any premises unless either—

(a) that employer has carried out a suitable and sufficient assessment as to whether asbestos, what type of asbestos, contained in what material and in what condition is present or is liable to be present in those premises; or

(b) if there is doubt as to whether asbestos is present in those premises that employer—

(i) assumes that asbestos is present, and that it is not chrysotile alone, and

(ii) observes the applicable provisions of these Regulations.

You are presumably an employer so it is your duty to undertake the survey

Hope this helps

Thats all and well but as already stated Duty to Manage under CAR does not apply in domestic settings. HSWA does to workers though.

Caboche33383  
#14 Posted : 03 April 2020 17:16:30(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Caboche33383

Whilst you are correct that the duty to manage does not apply to domestic premises (or clients) the other duties under CAR 2012 do apply to "employers".

I also agree that Section 3 duties apply to employers and the self employed in this instance however Reg 5 is quite clear.

In this case the "employer" is the PC. There is aduty to identify the type and condition of ACMs in the premises. As the domestic householder has no duty that duty then passes to the employer (or self employed person) undertaking work within the premises.

Paragraph 148 of L143 provides guidance:

Before carrying out any work involving the potential disturbance of asbestos, employers should find out if the part of the building likely to be disturbed contains asbestos and, if so, the type and condition. This should include assessing relevant information, such as that contained in construction plans or provided by dutyholders responsible for the maintenance and repair of premises under regulation 4 of the Regulations (eg asbestos surveys or registers). If no records are available, or there are doubts about their accuracy/relevance, employers may need to arrange a survey and analysis of representative samples to determine the presence, type and condition of asbestos.

My emphasis on the bold type.

Edited by user 03 April 2020 17:21:36(UTC)  | Reason: formatting

thanks 1 user thanked Caboche33383 for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 03/04/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 03 April 2020 19:16:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

All about context - domestic premises Yes, owner/occupier No, Employer Yes
Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 03 April 2020 19:16:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

All about context - domestic premises Yes, owner/occupier No, Employer Yes
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