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achrn  
#1 Posted : 21 May 2020 12:08:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Has anyone else noticed that the ‘Working safely during Covid-19’ guidance is being silently changed without any acknowledgement?  The offices guidance document you get today is not the same as the one that I downloaded on 12 May, even though they are both dated '11 May 2020'

Most of the changes are just to web links and contact details (there’s a different HSE phone number, for example) but the guidance about hand drying has actually changed – the first version said you should use paper towels, the one you get today has added electric hand dryers.

This makes the demand that employers sign declarations that they comply with the guidance even more ridiculous – which version of the guidance does the declaration apply to?  One you’ve changed without telling me?  How often am I expected to download and play spot-the-difference in case changed requirements have been silently added?

thanks 7 users thanked achrn for this useful post.
Kate on 24/05/2020(UTC), Kim Hedges on 24/05/2020(UTC), CptBeaky on 26/05/2020(UTC), wolf1608 on 27/05/2020(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 27/05/2020(UTC), Dr SF on 27/05/2020(UTC), hilary on 28/05/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 21 May 2020 12:26:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Then you move in to another debate - blowing water droplets around or having damp paper to dispose of.

Personally I prefer the damp paper as you can't turn off the taps with a wall mounted hand drier.

Problem is someone else has to touch the dispenser to fill it.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kim Hedges on 24/05/2020(UTC), Dr SF on 27/05/2020(UTC), Kim Hedges on 24/05/2020(UTC), Dr SF on 27/05/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 21 May 2020 12:26:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Then you move in to another debate - blowing water droplets around or having damp paper to dispose of.

Personally I prefer the damp paper as you can't turn off the taps with a wall mounted hand drier.

Problem is someone else has to touch the dispenser to fill it.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kim Hedges on 24/05/2020(UTC), Dr SF on 27/05/2020(UTC), Kim Hedges on 24/05/2020(UTC), Dr SF on 27/05/2020(UTC)
Kate  
#4 Posted : 24 May 2020 11:39:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I'm pleased I did download it and referenced the date I downloaded it on my gap analysis document!

So at least I can prove what I looked at.

I have no problem with the guidance changing, but we do need to be able to see that it has been changed, and which bits have been changed, if we are to keep up with the changes.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
Kim Hedges on 24/05/2020(UTC)
Kim Hedges  
#5 Posted : 24 May 2020 12:48:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

Obviously needs a dynamic version counter, for each change. 

russ pt  
#6 Posted : 26 May 2020 07:00:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
russ pt

I've signed up to the You Gov updates on Coronavirus and any changes you are then notified. Unfortunately you get notifications on all documents relating to COVID 19 and can be as much as 30 a day. Personally I'm not interested in how many flights are put on for UK citizans leaving the West Indies or Australia but thats the level of detail, thankfully the headings are in the e-mals so you can delete those not relevant.

achrn  
#7 Posted : 26 May 2020 09:29:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: russ pt Go to Quoted Post

I've signed up to the You Gov updates on Coronavirus and any changes you are then notified.

But do they actually notify all the changes?   Specifically, the document claims it's the same as it always was (it's dated the same).  I fear that receiving a list of acknowledged changes doesn't help identify changes they don't admit to.

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
Wailes900134 on 26/05/2020(UTC)
russ pt  
#8 Posted : 26 May 2020 11:18:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
russ pt

Achrn

when they post an update they normally refernce or sign post the change, e.g. I recently received an update on the guidance for Working safely during coronaviris and the update stated below, hope this helps. Regards Leyton

Page summary Guidance to help employers, employees and the self-employed understand how to work safely during the coronavirus pandemic.

Change made Shops and branches – Updated to reflect industry feedback and to expand coverage of non essential retail categories ahead of planned opening.

wolf1608  
#9 Posted : 27 May 2020 09:21:38(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
wolf1608

Hi,  well I hadn`t noticed the changes until I read this thread.  They have also added the need to publish the RA to the company website!

Can anyone send me a copy of the early guidance that they downloaded?  As my early version has been overwritten !!!!!

Thanks in advance,

Wolf

RVThompson  
#10 Posted : 27 May 2020 10:04:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RVThompson

Regarding the change to hand drying in the Govt guidance referred to above, it has long been hypothesised that warm air dryers are less hygienic than paper towels, especially in toilets where the air is taken from inside the toilet.

The evidence summary submitted to SAGE in April this year that I received in my inbox yesterday references this (paragraph 12, page 4):  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887556/SAGE_paper_Apr_2020_Final-redacted.pdf

Might it be concluded that instead of the published scientific guidance on the efficacy of hand towel use, it is the environmental impact that engineered this change to official Govt guidance (‘guided by the science’)?

Just a thought...

Brian Hagyard  
#11 Posted : 27 May 2020 13:45:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Thank goodness for that thought it was me imagining things! We were in the process of getting paper twoel dispensers for our toiltes to be able to turn the dryers off! I also see they have added some signage pictures for lifts in the office based one! Very naught had spent ages going through it when it was publishde to start getting ready for opening our offices up a little more so had not looked again until i saw this thread! (and i still dont like hand dryers - not only do they blow stuff about most of them dont even dry your hands so microbes left can groe easier!)

Mark-W  
#12 Posted : 27 May 2020 14:00:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mark-W

2 clients have blown air driers rather than towels. But if you've just washed your hands with soap and watrer for 20 seconds, then they aren't going to blow germs/virus anywhere because it's not there to begin with. 

Both sets of driers are good at drying and a lot more efficient than towels in my mind. I suppose it come down to wether companys have spent sensible monies on hand dryers or gone for the cheapest. 

RVThompson  
#13 Posted : 27 May 2020 14:30:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RVThompson

Unfortunately many people don't wash their hands properly to begin with, do not dry them adequately (five seconds under/near the drier), then walk out with wet hands touching door handles etc.

Another paper from 2012: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538484/

Thomas Baxter  
#14 Posted : 27 May 2020 16:10:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Thomas Baxter

Hi Mark,

With my Food Safety head on now, disposable paper towels are the preferred method for hand drying. With hand dryers you have the risk of blowing water droplets around in the air. Unfortunately it comes down to people washing their hands properly in the first place.

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post

2 clients have blown air driers rather than towels. But if you've just washed your hands with soap and watrer for 20 seconds, then they aren't going to blow germs/virus anywhere because it's not there to begin with. 

Both sets of driers are good at drying and a lot more efficient than towels in my mind. I suppose it come down to wether companys have spent sensible monies on hand dryers or gone for the cheapest. 

Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 27 May 2020 16:12:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post
But if you've just washed your hands with soap and watrer for 20 seconds, then they aren't going to blow germs/virus anywhere because it's not there to begin with.

Most hand basins are located in the toilets. Plenty of videos showing the dispersals that occur when a toilet or urinal flushes and currently being animated to sell a bathroom freshener (some Motorway service stations - remember them? - were changing their seated facilities for ones that only flushed when the lid was closed).

Washed hands aren't the only item to enter the flow of air from a dryer - wrists/forearms/sleeves.....

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 27/05/2020(UTC), chris42 on 28/05/2020(UTC), Kate on 27/05/2020(UTC), chris42 on 28/05/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 27 May 2020 16:12:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post
But if you've just washed your hands with soap and watrer for 20 seconds, then they aren't going to blow germs/virus anywhere because it's not there to begin with.

Most hand basins are located in the toilets. Plenty of videos showing the dispersals that occur when a toilet or urinal flushes and currently being animated to sell a bathroom freshener (some Motorway service stations - remember them? - were changing their seated facilities for ones that only flushed when the lid was closed).

Washed hands aren't the only item to enter the flow of air from a dryer - wrists/forearms/sleeves.....

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 27/05/2020(UTC), chris42 on 28/05/2020(UTC), Kate on 27/05/2020(UTC), chris42 on 28/05/2020(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#17 Posted : 28 May 2020 10:54:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

The WHO and NHS hand washing guidance is to use paper towels for drying and has been for some time

https://www.who.int/gpsc/5may/How_To_HandWash_Poster.pdf?ua=1

thanks 2 users thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
RVThompson on 28/05/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 28/05/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#18 Posted : 28 May 2020 12:43:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I dislike hand driers for a number of reasons. The cheap ones are very low powered and (to quote my late mother) are as effective as having a cat coughing over your hands (it sounds almost poetic in Polish). Which means that people spend the day with wet hands. Chris Packham will be able to tell why this is not a good thing. The more expensive ones do dry your hands but often seem to accumulate a pool of water beneath them eg the blade type. I can’t imagine that anybody   cleans this up regularly. God what is might be growing in there. And  then there is the risk of stuff being blown around the area. The guidance about working (in labs for example) with the Covid virus clearly distinguishes between the virus just sitting there and the risk posed by it when formed into an aerosol.

FM people usually install these hand driers because it is less work for them as there are no paper towels for them to deal with. Not surprisingly  I have never seen  hand driers used in a CL3 lab.

Edited by user 28 May 2020 12:43:43(UTC)  | Reason: missing words

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RVThompson on 28/05/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#19 Posted : 28 May 2020 13:13:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Perhaps the following is relevant:

“The use of paper towels consistently out-performed all the other drying techniques, especially with regard to bacteria left on the palms and fingertips. This suggests that bacteria repopulating the surface of the skin during the rubbing process were being physically removed by the paper towels along with the moisture. In so doing, paper towels appear to remove bacteria in a way in which conventional warm air hand dryers are incapable of replicating.” - Snelling AM, Saville T, Stevens D, Beggs CB,Comparative evaluation of the hygienic efficacy of an ultra-rapid hand dryer vs conventional warm air hand dryers, Journal of Applied Microbiology, Sept 2010

There is also evidence (I have to find it in my files) that the high velocity air driers spread the micro-organisms considerably further than the other types. 

thanks 2 users thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
RVThompson on 28/05/2020(UTC), CptBeaky on 29/05/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#20 Posted : 28 May 2020 13:32:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Found it!

‘Efficient washing and drying of hands is important in the transfer of micro-organisms. However, knowledge surrounding the potential for microbial contamination according to hand-drying methods is limited. This study assessed the potential for airborne microbe dispersal during hand drying by four methods (paper towel, roller towel, warm air drier and jet air drier) using three different models. The jet air drier dispersed liquid from users’ hands further and over a greater range (up to 1.5m) than the other drying methods (up to 0.75m), demonstrating the different potential risks for airborne microbe dissemination particularly if hand washing is suboptimal.’ - Best EL, Redway K, Comparison of different hand-drying methods; the potential for airborne microbe dispersal and contamination, Journal of Hospital Infection, 90 (2015)215-217

thanks 4 users thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 28/05/2020(UTC), Roundtuit on 28/05/2020(UTC), RVThompson on 28/05/2020(UTC), CptBeaky on 29/05/2020(UTC)
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