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pdurkin  
#1 Posted : 23 November 2020 12:41:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin

Covid prevention adice to date has mainly featured: Hands,Face,Space.

Should ventilation be the 4th priority?

aud  
#2 Posted : 23 November 2020 13:33:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

According to many recent opinions of epidemilogists and virus chasers, ventilate should be the FIRST priority now that there is more understanding of transmission. Good luck with that this winter.

So it should be AIR - SPACE - FACE (covering).

Followed by HANDS (wash) and maybe TOPS (can't think of a good way to say to clean frequently touched surfaces) and SLOPS (bathroom transmission is a high risk areas apparently but nobody likes to talk about stuff like pee & poo).

The government only do stuff in 'threes' as that's what their marketing gurus promote. 

Nobody likes to change a catchy saying even when the basis behind it changes. As demonstrated in the H&S world "all accidents are preventable" "safety is number one priority" etc.

peter gotch  
#3 Posted : 23 November 2020 13:41:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Aud

Actually the Scottish Government can count up to five.

So, the mantra is FACTS.

Unfortunately, top of the precautions is F for face covering

....whilst social distancing only makes it to no 4 as in T for two metres.

Edited by user 23 November 2020 13:42:40(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

pdurkin  
#4 Posted : 23 November 2020 14:51:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin

Agree ventilation should be the 1st Priority.

However what do we take as a ventilation rate e.g. Volumetric air change rate(VAR),as in the CIBSE guide Offices 4-6 (VACR)

What aout buses in winter with CLOSED windows?

biker1  
#5 Posted : 24 November 2020 10:05:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

I think some caution is called for here. There is a school of thought that opening windows or otherwise encouraging air flow can distribute the virus indoors where it might not normally circulate.

stevedm  
#6 Posted : 24 November 2020 10:28:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Inadequate indoor ventilationEnhanced infection risk of SARS-CoV in makeshift hospitalsWith > 12 air changes per hour (ACH) (e.g., equivalent to > 80 L/s for a 24 m3-room) and controlled direction of airflowLow risk of infectivity of viral diseases in an airborne precaution roomNegative pressure of > 2.5 Pa, an airflow having a difference between the exhaust to supply > 125 cfm (56 L/s), clean-to-dirty airflow, > 12 ACH for a new building, and > 6 ACH in existing buildings for an old building, and exhaust to the outside, or a HEPA-filter if room air is recirculatedLow risk of infectivity in an airborne infection isolation room

Research report from September this year...heat humidity and airflow all have a part to play...slong with the droplet size... 

Lawlee45239  
#7 Posted : 24 November 2020 10:34:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

Originally Posted by: pdurkin Go to Quoted Post

Covid prevention adice to date has mainly featured: Hands,Face,Space.

Should ventilation be the 4th priority?

I think the ventilation aspect is a hard one, perhaps it is further down as there isnt a pot of money to pay for the required upgrades to the olders schools/ hospitals/nursing homes/ care homes/ housing. But the first 3 basics are not being adhered to in my view, if them 3 are in place transmission should be reduced somewhat. In 10 years time we will have all the answers! The 'we should have done' ! 

thanks 1 user thanked Lawlee45239 for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 02/12/2020(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#8 Posted : 24 November 2020 11:10:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: Lawlee45239 Go to Quoted Post

In 10 years time we will have all the answers! The 'we should have done' ! 

I think we will find that we already had a ten year review in place but failed to act on it.

The Asia-Pacific countries leared these lessons from the SARS outbreak.  Hense why the social and ecconomic impact in NZ, Aus, SKorea etc has been so much less than in the UK. 

The UK (and much of Europe/America) paid scant attention to the lessons of SARS and are learning a far harsher lesson. , IMO.

FHS  
#9 Posted : 24 November 2020 13:35:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
FHS

Biker1 - Please can you reference any research that indicates ventilation contributing to the spread of the virus?

Olawunmi Rasheed  
#10 Posted : 25 November 2020 05:59:57(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Da special one

Increasing evidence suggests that airflows is important for estimation of the risk of contracting COVID-19 and available data shows that indoor transmission of the virus far more than outdoor transmission, possibly due to longer exposure times indoors. 

stevedm  
#11 Posted : 25 November 2020 09:37:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Research paper on the effects of ventilation on the indoor spread of COVID-19...

there was also an article in the journal of fluid dynamics on the subject but that was more about modelling it...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7520710/

pdurkin  
#12 Posted : 26 November 2020 12:53:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin

thanks for your esponses,regarding indoor air & lockups where the virus spread could be difficult to contain

Has anyone any data regarding HM prisons?

i.e. What guidance do we us from the CIBSE guide e.g. ACH for WCs & 6-12 ACH?

Also any idea of cell size?

JL  
#13 Posted : 02 December 2020 15:29:28(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JL

Originally Posted by: pdurkin Go to Quoted Post

thanks for your esponses,regarding indoor air & lockups where the virus spread could be difficult to contain

Has anyone any data regarding HM prisons?

i.e. What guidance do we us from the CIBSE guide e.g. ACH for WCs & 6-12 ACH?

Also any idea of cell size?

Pdurkin - no specific advice on prisons, but I'm pretty sure the National assosiation of probation officers released some ventilation guidance last month, might be worth a look at. 
thanks 1 user thanked JL for this useful post.
pdurkin on 04/12/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#14 Posted : 02 December 2020 17:19:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Don't overlook the indirect transfer of the virus via surfaces. Several studies have shown that this is an important, often overlooked, route. 

"In conclusion, we showed that a moderate protein concentration in droplets markedly increased the infectivity of SARS-Cov-2, suggesting that a protein-rich medium like airway secretions could protect the virus when it is expelled and may enhance its persistence and transmission by contaminated fomites. Accordingly it is plausible that fomites infected with SARs-Cov-19 play a key role in the indirect transmission of coronovirus disease (COVID-19). This finding supports surface cleaning as a necessary action that should be enforced and repeated because it may play a key role in halting SARS-Cov-2 transmission and mitigating the COVID-19 pandemic. – Pastorino B, Touret F, Gilles M, de Lamballerie X, Charrel RN, Prolonged Infectivity of SARS-Cov2 in Fomites, Emerging Infectious Diseases, 26, 9, Sept 2020."

Since the indirect transmission almost inevitably involves the hands hand decontamination is an important element in any comprehensive management approach. However, the evidence is that hand washing is not the most effective way of achieving this.

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