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Tatti S  
#1 Posted : 24 November 2020 16:24:51(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tatti S

Hi to all,

My company is thinking about installing UV lamps for disinfection purposes instead of liquid chemical disinfectants we currently use. Do you have any suggestions or experience in using these?

Holliday42333  
#2 Posted : 24 November 2020 16:56:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Are you looking to do this based on Sales literature or scientific research and official guidance?

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 24 November 2020 17:50:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/disinfecting-premises-during-coronavirus-outbreak.htm

Following on from the scandal of face masks offering less protection than stated the UV lamp market is the latest area fakers and scammers have started to appear e.g.

Alert number: A12/01064/20 Portable Ultraviolet Disinfection Rod model: JL-630 sold on Amazon did not emit the necessary UV-C

Alert number: A12/00987/20 Sterilize UVC Light Germicidal UVC LED Lamp Portable Home Handheld Disinfection emitted unsafe levels of UV-A and did not emit the necessary UV-C

Alert number: A12/00986/20 UVC 86 UV Steriliser Lamp product emits an unsafe amount of UV-A, UV-B and UV-C

The HSE web site gives some guidance including avoiding exposing skin and eyes.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Tatti S on 24/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 24/11/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 24 November 2020 17:50:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/disinfecting-premises-during-coronavirus-outbreak.htm

Following on from the scandal of face masks offering less protection than stated the UV lamp market is the latest area fakers and scammers have started to appear e.g.

Alert number: A12/01064/20 Portable Ultraviolet Disinfection Rod model: JL-630 sold on Amazon did not emit the necessary UV-C

Alert number: A12/00987/20 Sterilize UVC Light Germicidal UVC LED Lamp Portable Home Handheld Disinfection emitted unsafe levels of UV-A and did not emit the necessary UV-C

Alert number: A12/00986/20 UVC 86 UV Steriliser Lamp product emits an unsafe amount of UV-A, UV-B and UV-C

The HSE web site gives some guidance including avoiding exposing skin and eyes.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Tatti S on 24/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 24/11/2020(UTC)
Tatti S  
#5 Posted : 25 November 2020 09:08:10(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tatti S

We did some research and found different products - from ordinary UV lamps to more sophisticated products like pre-programmed UVC robots with motion sensors and smart lamps that can be turned on with an app.

I'm just thinking if it's worth the money. Now we stick to masks+distancing+handwashing, but can UV disinfection of common rooms really reduce the number of cases? Maybe someone has experience?

stevedm  
#6 Posted : 25 November 2020 09:20:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

UV disinfection lamps have been known to remove the initial protien layer for SARS on surfaces...however while there is some research papers out there is no fefinitive research that supports thier use for SARS-COV-2...

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A Kurdziel on 27/11/2020(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#7 Posted : 26 November 2020 13:02:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

I have come across UV sterilisation in the pharmacuetical context where high intensity light cabinets are used to sterilise some equipment but I would be wary of "open" use where there is no proven track record for the equipment.  

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A Kurdziel on 27/11/2020(UTC)
Tatti S  
#8 Posted : 26 November 2020 13:48:58(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tatti S

We want to use lamps for room disinfection. We've found some companies that claim that UVC wavelength is deadly for viruses and bacteria but not harmful to people's eyes and skin. However, they do not recommend to use these lamps in human presence. 

Anyway, we'd like to install something like this in some of our shared facilities, like bathrooms or kitchens. And turn them on couple times a day. We think it can be more efficient than inhaling chemicals all the time. 

Hope someone here has stories to share.

chris.packham  
#9 Posted : 26 November 2020 15:20:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

One of the limitations of UVC is that it can only work on those micro-organisms that are actually exposed to the radiation for the necessary length of time. In most indoor situations bacteria can lurk in many different and generally inaccesible locations where it is almost inevitable that exposure will not happen. Once you switch the UVC source off there is no residual activity as far as I am aware, so those bacterial will be free to recolonise the surfaces you have decontaminated. You might be surprised how quickly this can happen. 

thanks 4 users thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 26/11/2020(UTC), stevedm on 26/11/2020(UTC), Hsquared14 on 26/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 27/11/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 26 November 2020 15:50:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

We had UVC lamps installed in our virology labs. The limitations were as mentioned: they only took out those viruses that are in direct line of sight of the lamps. And if you were to be exposed to the UVC directly you’d get a painful tan.

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Hsquared14 on 26/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 27/11/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#11 Posted : 26 November 2020 22:11:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

I don't know where the concept that UVC is not damaging to eyes came from. This is simply not the case. In addition consider that if UVC can destroy bacteria and presumably also viruses what will the effect be on the bacteria that live in the outermost layer (stratum corneum) our skin? In many places on the skin under a 20p piece you might find in excess of 10,000 such bacteria. They fulfill a useful role in that they help maintain a skin surface condition that helps inhibit colonisation by transient micro-organisms. Damage these and what might be the consequences? Given that over most of our body this layer is only around the thickness of a piece of cling film that you wrap sandwiches in, the UVC will easily penetrate to where the bacteria are. I would treat all UV radiation with extreme caution.

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Tatti S on 27/11/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 27/11/2020(UTC)
Tatti S  
#12 Posted : 27 November 2020 08:28:52(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tatti S

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

We know a little by now how UV works and how quickly it can disinfect rooms of certain sizes. However, as it was mentioned above, UV only disinfects what is sees - it can't reach under tables or furniture. But anyway, all the visible surfaces that were touched by presumably Covid-positive, but asymptomatic empolyees - like kettle handles, table surfaces, floors etc - they will be disinfected, right? 

We thought that can be a way to prove to the employees we care. Those lamps can be turned on only in absense of people. And motion sensors stop disinfection cycle once someone enters the room.

Would you feel more confident in a workplace equipped with UV lamps? 

Holliday42333  
#13 Posted : 27 November 2020 08:42:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: Tatti S Go to Quoted Post

Would you feel more confident in a workplace equipped with UV lamps? 

In short; no.

As you identify, the UV wouldn't reach the far side of the kettle handle etc, so would be innefective in reaching the kind of nooks and crannies a virus could theoretically settle and would be touched.

One of the regular posters on these forums regularly cautions about using 'biological theatre' in place of valid controls.  Things that look impressive to a lay person but actually don't achieve much (such as using uncalibrated skin temperature testing as a Covid control).

However, I applaud your commitment to seeking out new solutions, its just in this case I'm not convinced its effective.  You'll find most people here who offer advice are a pretty impirical bunch.  Theories are far less persuasive than demonstratable conclusions.

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A Kurdziel on 27/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 29/11/2020(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 27 November 2020 09:35:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Tati what do you mean by a general area.? As said, I have used in a lab situation which was about 30 m2 in area. We needed 6 x 1 metre UVC tubes fitted to make sure the whole surface area was covered. It was a lab and managed reasonably well; we made sure that there were no nooks and crannies were the UVC could not reach. We had a warning light on the door when the UV was on and it only came after work finished typically from 7 at night to 7 in the morning. Later we fitted an interlock. Setting up lamps like this in a common area where people are coming and going would be problematic. If would only work if it was completely empty of furniture etc but then of course as it was devoid of any facilities nobody would use it and there would not be any risk of people bringing the virus in anyway.

There seems to be this resistance to proper cleaning regimes and people looking at things like this and fogging as a way to get around the need to keep places clean.

 

Edited by user 27 November 2020 09:40:44(UTC)  | Reason: words and thgings

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Holliday42333 on 27/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 29/11/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#15 Posted : 27 November 2020 11:17:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

As it says on a bag we got from Trading Standards - if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

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Tatti S on 29/11/2020(UTC)
Tatti S  
#16 Posted : 29 November 2020 15:38:07(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tatti S

I understand all of your scepticism. I myselp have doubts, too. So I'm so glad there's a community of professionals who can dilute this thick flow of marketing tricks.

We don't need to make common areas sterile. The idea is to just kill the biggest part of Covid viruses there without spraying chemicals (what we are currently doing). We know we can't kill all of it everywhere, but we'll keep wiping handles, buttons etc. Theoretically this can help reduce the number of infected, can't it? 

Anyway, how do you ensure the safety of workplaces? I mean something other than masks and hand sanitizers. We can't swith to remote work.

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A Kurdziel on 30/11/2020(UTC)
chris.packham  
#17 Posted : 29 November 2020 16:29:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Achieving absolute safety from the SARS-Cov-2 virus is simply not possible if the workplace is to operate. For this you would have to know constantly where the virus might be present. How are you going to do this? Firstly we need to consider how you will know that someone who you tested on arrival is not a carrier but asymptomatic. Even a negative test will not tell you whether they are colonised as it only tests for what is in the body and not is perhaps on or in the skin, clothing or other objects that they have on them. So essentially you have to assume that anyone could be a donor but you would not know this. For me the only practical approach is to attempt, so far as possible, to limit the spread of the virus with consequent colonisation/infection of others. Note 'limit' not 'prevent' since given the many ways in which transmission (direct and indirect via fomites) can occur achieving absolute detection and prevention is not really practicable. 

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A Kurdziel on 30/11/2020(UTC)
peter gotch  
#18 Posted : 29 November 2020 16:43:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Tatti

One of the problems that others have alluded to is the word "safe". One of those words which is almost invariably on a spectrum from 100% safe to 100% dangerous.

Usually, when one puts in place some measure to reduce a risk, it increases another risk (or, even, the same risk).

In this case, my concern would be that if you introduce a measure that you understand to have limitations in effectiveness, others may see it as somehow being a magic cure and reduce their diligence in other precautions (however well you were to explain the limitations).

We have seen much of this over the last few months. In the early part of the pandemic, it was very clear that the No 1 precaution was keeping a distance from those around you - more recently the focus has shifted to face coverings, with even Government guidance shuffling the order of prioritisation of recommended precautions.

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A Kurdziel on 30/11/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#19 Posted : 29 November 2020 20:36:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

In the pre-Covid snake oil sales UV tubes were typically involved with the microbiological control of water and effluent flows. One thing the suppliers were keen to identify is that the UV tube has a finite effective lifespan.

You are starting from the wrong assumption that the workplace is swimming in Covid virus you need to control. Virus need hosts to proliferate not hard inorganic surfaces.

You need to control the potential for introduction of Covid to the workplace - the disinfection and cleaning routines are just that.

Moving to UVC for your situation is to quote AK "biosafety theatre".

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A Kurdziel on 30/11/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 30/11/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 29 November 2020 20:36:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

In the pre-Covid snake oil sales UV tubes were typically involved with the microbiological control of water and effluent flows. One thing the suppliers were keen to identify is that the UV tube has a finite effective lifespan.

You are starting from the wrong assumption that the workplace is swimming in Covid virus you need to control. Virus need hosts to proliferate not hard inorganic surfaces.

You need to control the potential for introduction of Covid to the workplace - the disinfection and cleaning routines are just that.

Moving to UVC for your situation is to quote AK "biosafety theatre".

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 30/11/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 30/11/2020(UTC)
Tatti S  
#21 Posted : 30 November 2020 11:46:23(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tatti S

Guys, could you elaborate on "biological theatre"? What does that mean?

I still see the benefits from destroying Covid viruses on visible surfaces. They can stay there for quite a long time and can be touched by many people.

Roundtuit  
#22 Posted : 30 November 2020 12:13:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

"bio-safety theatre"

Doing something with the intention of appearing to be controlling the uncontrollable.

Undertaking activity that has no, or very minimal, impact upon a situation.

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Tatti S on 30/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 30/11/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#23 Posted : 30 November 2020 12:13:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

"bio-safety theatre"

Doing something with the intention of appearing to be controlling the uncontrollable.

Undertaking activity that has no, or very minimal, impact upon a situation.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Tatti S on 30/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 30/11/2020(UTC)
achrn  
#24 Posted : 30 November 2020 12:42:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Tatti S Go to Quoted Post

I still see the benefits from destroying Covid viruses on visible surfaces. They can stay there for quite a long time and can be touched by many people.

But what if it's really a case of possibly destroying slightly more quickly than it would lose viability anyway virus that probably isn't there in the first place, and could be more effectively controlled with something less theatrical (like washing hands)?

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Tatti S on 30/11/2020(UTC)
Tatti S  
#25 Posted : 30 November 2020 13:08:43(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tatti S

Our employees are slightly hysterical about Covid and they request leaves or simply don't show up at work. Don't you freak out when somebody coughs near you? :) 

So we thought UV lamps could encourage them and prove it's clean inside. 

A Kurdziel  
#26 Posted : 30 November 2020 13:38:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

“Our employees are slightly hysterical about Covid and they request leaves or simply don't show up at work. Don't you freak out when somebody coughs near you? :)”

Yes, I can see that. People are generally very nervous about the unknown. We have been told about the deadly new virus and most of us only have limited experience of microorganisms. The media either portrays them as not very serious (“its just a glorified cold”)  or we see something like “Contagion” or the “Hot Zone” or (can anyone else remember) “Survivors”  and become totally terrified. The truth being somewhere in the middle. Interestingly one of my first H&S task was to reassure FM staff who seemed terrified of microbiology labs. Of course, these were the guys who thought WAH was no issue and live working-what’s a few volts surging through your body? Show them a lab where you are working with E.coli O157 they run away.  

How to manage  perception of risks is always a big issue.

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RVThompson on 30/11/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 30/11/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#27 Posted : 30 November 2020 20:41:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

A certain recently launched streaming service has my attention because it is showing the original serial Survivors Next I will advance to Quatermass "huffity, puffity, ring Stone round" hopefully before the Utah monolith takes mankind on a Kubrik / Clarke mind melting trip

Edited by user 30 November 2020 20:47:54(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

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Roundtuit  
#28 Posted : 30 November 2020 20:41:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

A certain recently launched streaming service has my attention because it is showing the original serial Survivors Next I will advance to Quatermass "huffity, puffity, ring Stone round" hopefully before the Utah monolith takes mankind on a Kubrik / Clarke mind melting trip

Edited by user 30 November 2020 20:47:54(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
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Roundtuit  
#29 Posted : 01 December 2020 10:15:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers_safety/safety_products/rapex/alerts/?event=main.listNotifications&lng=en

Report 48 (27/11/2020) is very interesting - along with many hand sanitiser issues there are a lot of UK based reports about dangerous and ineffective UV disinfection lamps

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Tatti S on 01/12/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 01/12/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#30 Posted : 01 December 2020 10:15:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers_safety/safety_products/rapex/alerts/?event=main.listNotifications&lng=en

Report 48 (27/11/2020) is very interesting - along with many hand sanitiser issues there are a lot of UK based reports about dangerous and ineffective UV disinfection lamps

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Tatti S on 01/12/2020(UTC), Tatti S on 01/12/2020(UTC)
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