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pdurkin  
#1 Posted : 14 December 2020 11:39:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin

When Trump suggested drinking bleach as a method of killing Covid,I thought Bonkers, but according to a ;local newspaper,this is another method of dousing reidents/visitors to care homes ith a sanitising mist via an archway entrance system. Apparently this is currently being trialed in Kent as a desparate method of tyyng to get Kent out of tier3.

Does anyone know of such a system elsewhere?

CptBeaky  
#2 Posted : 14 December 2020 11:51:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

That sounds dangerous. If it can kill viruses, what will it do to micro-biomes on a perosn? How do they ensure the person is completely doused? Do they have to strip and their clothes are done separately? Do they remove people from wheelchairs, so that these can be sanitised?

Just reminds me of spain bleaching their beaches at the beginning of the pandemic.

biker1  
#3 Posted : 14 December 2020 12:29:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Do they hold their breaths whilst dashing through this mist? Sounds definitely iffy to me.

Brian Hagyard  
#4 Posted : 14 December 2020 12:37:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

i was intrigued so looked it up.

https://saniarch.co.uk/

so comes with a pruduct passed by Cosmetic Products (safety) Regulations 2008, why on earth would you use those regulations? Would it bot pass the safety regulations as a Biocide?

chris.packham  
#5 Posted : 14 December 2020 13:09:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Both the WHO and our own HSE are opposed to the use of this technique. If you need more on this PM me with contact details and I will respond.

Holliday42333  
#6 Posted : 14 December 2020 13:39:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/disinfecting-premises-during-coronavirus-outbreak.htm

Do not spray people with disinfectants

Do not spray people with disinfectants (in a tunnel, cabinet, or chamber) under any circumstances. Spraying a person could be harmful and does not reduce the spread of the virus. This is because transmission is usually through droplets or contact. 

Attempting to disinfect someone in a disinfection system or device has no impact on the spread of the virus because droplets are created when people talk, cough or sneeze.

thanks 2 users thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
Brian Hagyard on 15/12/2020(UTC), Kate on 16/12/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 14 December 2020 14:59:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post
a product passed by Cosmetic Products (safety) Regulations 2008, why on earth would you use those regulations? Would it not pass the safety regulations as a Biocide?

If it has biocidal claims then it should be approved by the HSE as such, however the active agent would never be approved for human contact in this manner.

A lot of substances that used to be "approved" for leave on application as cosmetic products have long since been removed.

Once again snake oil salesmen pandering to the "need to be seen to be doing something" brigade.

Why not set up a sheep dip to dunk residents and visitors in?

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
biker1 on 14/12/2020(UTC), biker1 on 14/12/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 14 December 2020 14:59:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post
a product passed by Cosmetic Products (safety) Regulations 2008, why on earth would you use those regulations? Would it not pass the safety regulations as a Biocide?

If it has biocidal claims then it should be approved by the HSE as such, however the active agent would never be approved for human contact in this manner.

A lot of substances that used to be "approved" for leave on application as cosmetic products have long since been removed.

Once again snake oil salesmen pandering to the "need to be seen to be doing something" brigade.

Why not set up a sheep dip to dunk residents and visitors in?

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
biker1 on 14/12/2020(UTC), biker1 on 14/12/2020(UTC)
biker1  
#9 Posted : 14 December 2020 15:06:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post
a

Why not set up a sheep dip to dunk residents and visitors in?

Now that made me chuckle!
Benz3ne  
#10 Posted : 14 December 2020 15:13:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Benz3ne

I can understand why the guidance is 'don't do it, folks'. The last thing we want is for people to (a) use non-prescribed chemicals in the disinfecting chambers and (b) making their own.

Quaternary ammonium compounds include things like benzalkonium chloride which is found a lot in antibac surface cleaners and, more recently, alcohol-free disinfectants/sanitisers.

Not too terrible stuff and can be used in very small quantities with reasonable efficacy. I'd imagine if you wore goggles and a mask and were to walk through a reasonably large-droplet stream that it wouldn't be fine enough to permeate that and therefore be breathed in. It's used in detergents, as a preservative, in antiseptic mouthwashes and lozenges... it's surprisingly common stuff.

As for the 'how does it disinfect ALL of you' scenario, if you're disinfecting the outermost surface and you wash your hands and disinfect your hands regularly, then you're still at reduced risk as it's not persisting on bits of clothing/skin that you're not typically washing/sanitising.

The mention of cosmetic products regulations (CPR) is a strange one for me - if it's a biocide, and marketed as such, then this essentially supercedes is being classified as a cosmetic and therefore out of scope for CPR and instead must conform to biocidal products regulations (BPR). The exception for that is if it is marketed as a cosmetic at which point making disinfectant claims, especially 'kills viruses' type claims, are prohibited.

Benz3ne  
#11 Posted : 14 December 2020 15:17:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Benz3ne

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post
a product passed by Cosmetic Products (safety) Regulations 2008, why on earth would you use those regulations? Would it not pass the safety regulations as a Biocide?

If it has biocidal claims then it should be approved by the HSE as such, however the active agent would never be approved for human contact in this manner.

A lot of substances that used to be "approved" for leave on application as cosmetic products have long since been removed.

Once again snake oil salesmen pandering to the "need to be seen to be doing something" brigade.

Why not set up a sheep dip to dunk residents and visitors in?

Correct, except for if they're on the 'under approval' list with ECHA. At which point regulations are largely relaxed and a full authorisation dossier is no longer required.

The good examples currently available for this is ethanol-based sanitisers. Ethanol is on the under-approval list, so it's easy to get it to market as a biocide. It is also easy to get it to market as a cosmetic ('hand gel' or other non-biocidal terminology), so you can essentially pick and choose which regulation to follow, and the criteria to get it to market therefore differ. In this instance, it can actually be cheaper to get it to market as a biocide.

Benz3ne  
#12 Posted : 14 December 2020 15:22:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Benz3ne

Originally Posted by: Benz3ne Go to Quoted Post

I can understand why the guidance is 'don't do it, folks'. The last thing we want is for people to (a) use non-prescribed chemicals in the disinfecting chambers and (b) making their own.

Quaternary ammonium compounds include things like benzalkonium chloride which is found a lot in antibac surface cleaners and, more recently, alcohol-free disinfectants/sanitisers.

Not too terrible stuff and can be used in very small quantities with reasonable efficacy. I'd imagine if you wore goggles and a mask and were to walk through a reasonably large-droplet stream that it wouldn't be fine enough to permeate that and therefore be breathed in. It's used in detergents, as a preservative, in antiseptic mouthwashes and lozenges... it's surprisingly common stuff.

As for the 'how does it disinfect ALL of you' scenario, if you're disinfecting the outermost surface and you wash your hands and disinfect your hands regularly, then you're still at reduced risk as it's not persisting on bits of clothing/skin that you're not typically washing/sanitising.

The mention of cosmetic products regulations (CPR) is a strange one for me - if it's a biocide, and marketed as such, then this essentially supercedes is being classified as a cosmetic and therefore out of scope for CPR and instead must conform to biocidal products regulations (BPR). The exception for that is if it is marketed as a cosmetic at which point making disinfectant claims, especially 'kills viruses' type claims, are prohibited.

I've answered my own point here, sort of, above. It doesn't feature on the ECHA biocidal products list. It can be marketed as a 'cleanser' or 'hand gel' or 'antibacterial', but is not listed for use in biocidal products.

Ergo, cosmetics it is. 

That's not to say it isn't efficacious - the company producing is still welcome to have them tested to EN1500/EN13727/EN1276, etc. ad infinitum (almost).

chris.packham  
#13 Posted : 14 December 2020 15:43:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Benzalkonium chloride is well known as a skin sensitiser, even at very low concentrations. According to my book (Patch Testing by Anton C. de Groot - which now lists 4900 skin sensitisers) patch testing for benzalkonim chloride is done at 0.1%

A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 14 December 2020 16:11:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

biosafety theatre still lives! it even gets you a mention in the local press as  a caring sharing sort of place!

On no it doesn’t oh yes it does…

OK why spray a whole fully clothed and possibly vulnerable person with something that might only kill covid 19 and might cause the respiratory and dermatitis issues when the problem is getting the virus up you nose either by inhalation or putting contaminated fingers up said nose?

Waste  of disinfectants/waste of money

Unnecessary risk to health

Possible environmental impact.

Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 14 December 2020 19:12:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The EU addressed such issues back in November 

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/cosmetics/products/borderline-products_en

Basically trying to head off the disreputable trader

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Brian Hagyard on 15/12/2020(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 15/12/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#16 Posted : 14 December 2020 19:12:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The EU addressed such issues back in November 

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/cosmetics/products/borderline-products_en

Basically trying to head off the disreputable trader

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Brian Hagyard on 15/12/2020(UTC), Brian Hagyard on 15/12/2020(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#17 Posted : 15 December 2020 08:43:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

thanks Roundtuit interesting read and as suspected not approved for use in this way - shame we dont have enough tradeing standards or health and Safety inspectors to deal with issues like this. Still getting collegues wanting to use UV or temperature checks on our entrance ways or fog the building every day - just down to something they have read on facebook!

pdurkin  
#18 Posted : 15 December 2020 22:30:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pdurkin

So far 16000 people in the county have stepped through the arches in care homes, factories and play centres”

This clearly indicates its intended use is at establishments other than just care homes. This escalates the seriousness of the situation and reinforces my view that it should urgently be brought to the attention of ALL health & safety agencies. Due to the use of a HSE proforma reporting form and bureaucracy so far I failed to properly bring the matter to the HSE’s urgent attention.

I therefore hope that the Kent Director of Public Health and my professional colleagues at Mid Kent’s environmental health departments/sections will help here as contacting the HSE directly is not easy

chris.packham  
#19 Posted : 16 December 2020 07:27:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

What does HSE say?

Do not spray people with disinfectants

Do not spray people with disinfectants (in a tunnel, cabinet, or chamber) under any circumstances. Spraying a person could be harmful and does not reduce the spread of the virus. This is because transmission is usually through droplets or contact. 

Attempting to disinfect someone in a disinfection system or device has no impact on the spread of the virus because droplets are created when people talk, cough or sneeze.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/coronavirus/disinfecting-premises-during-coronavirus-outbreak.htm

WHO takes an identical view.

thanks 1 user thanked chris.packham for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 16/12/2020(UTC)
Xavier123  
#20 Posted : 17 December 2020 08:55:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

thanks Roundtuit interesting read and as suspected not approved for use in this way - shame we dont have enough tradeing standards or health and Safety inspectors to deal with issues like this. Still getting collegues wanting to use UV or temperature checks on our entrance ways or fog the building every day - just down to something they have read on facebook!

These things are kicking around in a few places and the supplier is quite keen on challenging the HSE advice with lots of words and pictures that, ultimately, don't mean anything. I'm being somewhat facetious but it was akin to evidence that spraying the chemical in question on your feet to reduce bacterial count was an approved use with no significant side effects and therefore spraying it around your respiratory system would be just fine.

The last place we had that had invested in one was given short shrift over what would happen should they start to use it although since it was a nightclub they've not really had much of a chance... 

thanks 1 user thanked Xavier123 for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 17/12/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#21 Posted : 17 December 2020 11:21:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

What is interesting is to conduct an internet search on a named product or provider and travel back through their electronic foot prints left on the internet to see how their marketing claims adjust over time to in order to leave themselves less exposed to any HSE/Trading Standards intervention.

Edited by user 17 December 2020 11:41:41(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 17/12/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 17/12/2020(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#22 Posted : 17 December 2020 11:21:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

What is interesting is to conduct an internet search on a named product or provider and travel back through their electronic foot prints left on the internet to see how their marketing claims adjust over time to in order to leave themselves less exposed to any HSE/Trading Standards intervention.

Edited by user 17 December 2020 11:41:41(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 17/12/2020(UTC), A Kurdziel on 17/12/2020(UTC)
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