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Tittensor26376  
#1 Posted : 26 January 2021 10:25:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tittensor26376

Hi All,

just joined a new business as H&S Manager, the business has exhaustive risk assessments for everything, issues a Safety file at least 40 pages thick for Plasterboarding and skimming works on new house builds.basically one risk assessment for every piece of equipment (8 risk assessment for work at height equipment (not MEWPS!), in my opinion, all with the same hazards, risks and controls needed!

My concern is, 'in the real world' the message will be lost with the site guys, give them 40 pages, chances are none of it will be read or even understood, which sort of dfeats the object. (were supposed to help them work safer)

Im looking at condensing this down to an understandable and concise 2 pages maximum which 'gets across' to the people who need it what the hazards, risks are and what they need to do to eliminate or at least reduce to an acceptable leve.

My experience tells me this would stand more chance of them actually being read, with then more possibilities of them being uderstood.

Looking for others thoughts and input to gauge how were all looking at this type of thing, I see too often Safety information written by safety professionals in language and for Safety professionals, when, this is not who it should be written/communicated for/

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 26 January 2021 10:44:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Do not ask this forum, instead talk to the operators at the sharp end - write it with them, not for them
thanks 6 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 26/01/2021(UTC), Pandatank on 26/01/2021(UTC), chris42 on 26/01/2021(UTC), Kate on 26/01/2021(UTC), Pandatank on 26/01/2021(UTC), chris42 on 26/01/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 26 January 2021 10:44:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Do not ask this forum, instead talk to the operators at the sharp end - write it with them, not for them
thanks 6 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 26/01/2021(UTC), Pandatank on 26/01/2021(UTC), chris42 on 26/01/2021(UTC), Kate on 26/01/2021(UTC), Pandatank on 26/01/2021(UTC), chris42 on 26/01/2021(UTC)
Tittensor26376  
#4 Posted : 26 January 2021 11:00:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tittensor26376

Thats exactly my point, thanks, just looking for how others see/behave witht his.

Wailes900134  
#5 Posted : 26 January 2021 14:18:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wailes900134

I don’t think you’ll find any opposition on the forums to your thoughts and as Roundtuit says.... Go Do!

I have two rules and try and hit them both... As much as necessary, as little as possible... achieve both and you’ll be somewhere near. Also consider how the content is communicated (English as a second language, perhaps even clear speakers not being good readers etc), and how understanding is validated (as a support rather than a check of course).
graham hendry  
#6 Posted : 26 January 2021 14:47:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
graham hendry

I agree completely.

A accurate

B brief

C concise

These big documents won't hold up in court, they will be shown to be GOBBLEDYGOOK

craigroberts76  
#7 Posted : 26 January 2021 14:51:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
craigroberts76

I find a lot of this comes from the clients side.  I've had rams rejected today because the RA's were number RA006, RA007, RA0010... thats because RA008, RA009 are NOT relevant for that task, and so are hidden in the printed version.

My argument has always been - Who are the RAMS for? if its for a clients appreciation, then how will that save lives? if its for a worker and they include all the info a client wants, then the worker wont read it or take it in.

I include various bits in them to state that the worker will carry out a dynamic risk assessment on the ground may adjust the processes depending on their findings within the limits of their expertise.

I even had a set rejected as it had "keep 2m apart", but they wanted "keep social distancing", and another wanted "government guidelines on distancing"... totally ridiculous, if they mean the same thing then wheres the issue?

The worst, is when I have to use THEIR template... why? my techs dont know how to interperate their RAMS.

But I just get told, to do them their way to keep them happy and the money coming in...

Pandatank  
#8 Posted : 26 January 2021 15:18:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Pandatank

Originally Posted by: Tittensor26376 Go to Quoted Post

Hi All,

just joined a new business as H&S Manager, the business has exhaustive risk assessments for everything, issues a Safety file at least 40 pages thick for Plasterboarding and skimming works on new house builds.basically one risk assessment for every piece of equipment (8 risk assessment for work at height equipment (not MEWPS!), in my opinion, all with the same hazards, risks and controls needed!

Hi Tittensor,

As a Contractor under CDM, you will usually be asked for RA/MS by a Principal Contractor. Sometimes, when a site is audited for compliance with CDM, the auditor might check the RA/MS (and other certificates) against a WAH operation in progress at that time. I agree, it's too much for the guys on site and I applaud your efforts, but I would suggest tagging the "Risk Assessment for use of the equipment" to the equipment Log Book/Register (Thorough examination, CE Marking, inspection etc.). I don't know if you're using H&S management software or a paper system.  Often the originals are kept in the office, but there's a  "van/copy" for the work teams, it depends on what's "appropriate" and proportional to the risks.

peter gotch  
#9 Posted : 26 January 2021 15:56:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Tittensor

When I worked for HSE, I once wrote the prosecution report putting a contractor into court for a number of offences including failing to bring the company health and safety policy to the attention of all their employees.

We got to Court where the Defence Lawyer stood up to explain that his client was NOT charged with not having a policy but failing to bring it to the attention of all their workforce.

He offered the Sheriff sight of the policy in force on the date of the offence.

It ran to 30 odd pages.

The Sheriff enquired as to whether the Defence expected him to read the document - No.

Then asked whether one of the contractor's joiners should take it down to the pub on a Thursday so that they could discuss it with their colleagues - No

...or use it as bedtime reading on a Friday - No

"It's too long and nobody will read it. It should be one or two pages at the most."

Spot on, I thought.

As with all these things the KISS rule usually works (and, no I'm not a great fan of acronyms!). Keep it Simple and Safe. Excessive documentation is almost invariably counter-productive for the reasons you indicate.

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
craigroberts76 on 26/01/2021(UTC)
craigroberts76  
#10 Posted : 26 January 2021 16:17:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
craigroberts76

I love that.., common sense pervailed for once. if you cant recall it, then its too complicated.  

A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 26 January 2021 16:35:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I get the impression that some people think that the RAMS are the H&S system. So, if you put everything including the kitchen sink in them you have a H&S management system.

As people have said that RAMS should be for users and  ideally written by user or at  most their supervisors who hopefully understand what they are doing and how to do that safely.

H&S should be looking at the RAMS and seeing if they comply with the written risk assessment procedure which needs to be more elaborate. There  should also be a policy which hovers above everything  and sets out things like why you do RAMS.  You need to have a hierarchy and everybody needs to understand how what they do fits in with the hierarchy.

Edited by user 26 January 2021 16:38:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

chris42  
#12 Posted : 26 January 2021 20:03:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

The approach also seems wrong anyway. It does not matter if you have a 40-page assessment for plaster boarding or 8 assessments for WAH they shouldn’t be used directly with the employees as a training method, they are a management tool. The men should be trained properly in all the options for WAH you employ, not just given the RA’s and told read this whether, 40  or 2 pages. Have a copy available if someone at site wants to look at it (or be shown it)

That way client happy with their reams of paperwork covering everything under the sun and the workers will know what they need to. All they need is specific for the site is any unusual or different things from the norm in the initial induction. A method statement is a sequential sequence of work, which they should not generally need to be referring to every 5 minutes. They are not building an IKEA flat pack which they have never done before (I assume).

NB other flat pack suppliers are probably out there.

Of course, you can have one RA that covers a selection of WAH equipment, providing all the risks are covered for all the usage methods, if they are very similar. However sometimes it makes sense to separate if they are not similar or the control measure are vastly different. The result of falling is the same for a ladder as scaffolding, but controls could not be more different.

But you know all this you got the job. Your system your set up. Don’t create unnecessary paperwork and don’t leave out anything you may rely on in court.

Chris

Edited by user 26 January 2021 20:24:35(UTC)  | Reason: added a word

thanks 3 users thanked chris42 for this useful post.
Pandatank on 26/01/2021(UTC), Acorns on 26/01/2021(UTC), aud on 02/02/2021(UTC)
wardy  
#13 Posted : 26 January 2021 21:21:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wardy

Hi Tittensor26376,

This is a cut and paste from a book I wrote which may help with your situation, sorry if im teaching you to suck eggs-

Communicating the safety message is no easy task, but crucial to creating a safe and healthy place to work.  Your safety message will have the power to help prevent injuries and illness, so I am sure you would agree that it is something that needs to be taken seriously. 

Like any other part of the business, health and safety deserves the time and effort required to ensure that the message is clear, engaging, positive and informative.  Failure to communicate about health and safety makes it become a subject that employees think they don’t need to be concerned about.  Poor communication will have a negative effect on health and safety:

You may find this hard to believe (tongue in cheek) but not many people find health and safety interesting.  You know the type, you’re at a party and someone says-

“What do you do for a living?”

“I’m a health and safety manager”

And they politely change the subject.  Could be worse though, you could say you’re an estate agent. 

     It’s much the same at work, if you let it stay that way.  So it’s important that you understand your audience, how to get them engaged and how to keep them engaged.  Communication is a two-way thing so you need to listen as well as talk.  It can be a real pain at times, you know, the guy your afraid to walk past because he or she always has a problem but, it’s important to listen to their concerns no matter how small. 

Knowledge is power as someone once said.  Health and safety is a serious business, but coming across all serious all the time is only going to get you so far and you will become a bore and we have enough of those in health and safety.  Try to communicate positively in a language that the particular target understands.  It’s no-good quoting bits of the Health and Safety Act to someone who has no knowledge of the subject and has no need to know.  So it is important to be aware of any barriers that may prevent or hinder your health and safety message.  While you may be used to the safety jargon and legislation, bear in mind that most employees won’t be.  Employees will only be able to absorb so much, so make sure you prioritise your messages and even better, put a plan in place on what you are going to communicate.

I was carrying out a survey on a company and the health and safety manager tried to blind me and others around me by quoting section after section of the H&S Act and regulation after regulation.  As I told him, people don’t want to know all that, they just want to know how to work safely, it’s like buying a TV licence, you know you have to have one but you don’t need to know what Act requires you to have one. 

     Try to communicate the good things that have been done along with future goals and use “we” instead of “I”.  Make it real for them and give them examples and don’t forget, a little bit of humour goes a long way.       Be very clear with your communication.  If your message lacks clarity and is confusing, an employee may not actually hear what you had intended them to hear and your message will have been wasted.  If expectations are not clearly defined, then you may have the opposite result to your message.  Be sure to express clearly what result you expect.  Employees who confide in you with their concerns deserve to be listened to and not just “heard”.  If you communicate a safety message without having listened to employees, then the communication is incomplete and will not be successful.

The following are a few examples on how to communicate the safety massage-

  • Send a monthly newsletter via email – if your employees have an email address, this is a great way of popping into their inbox once a month to keep them up to date on what’s happening in the world of health and safety. Keep it short, interesting and fun. 

I loved compiling monthly newsletters and always received positive comments.  If I ever missed a month or was late publishing I always got asked “Where’s the Newsletter?”

Put some health and safety notice boards, up in prominent positions.  When I say health and safety, keep them to just that, don’t let them be taken over by other information.

Put up the biggest notice-boards practicable, the bigger the better, and in the right places, on the shop floor, in the canteen, in the foyer, where visitors can see them.  Fill them with information but, keep it, in the main, light hearted and interesting.  Use posters, cartoons and photos.  

     Make some spelling mistakes in some of the information.  When someone tells you that you have made a mistake, and they will, you will know they have read the information.

     If you have nothing new to put on the board, change the information around and make sure people see you doing this.  Give it a couple of minutes and a small crowd will gather to see what’s new; nothing but they won’t know that.

 -Toolbox talks – these off the cuff, non-formal meetings can work really well in the workplace.  Try and make it a routine talk, covering a different but relevant topic each week/month. Keep them short but again interesting.

 -Share case studies or incident reports.  It’s important for employees to understand the reality of what happens when safety goes wrong.  When you share information about real events and real happenings, employees are more likely to take notice. 

Be careful on the graphics, I once had an employee faint when I posted a picture, obtained from the internet, of a guy who had nailed one of his testicles to a roof truss when using a nail gun. 

 -Take pictures of safe actions.  While it might be tempting to highlight the unsafe actions, safe actions are important too and it’s nice to promote the positive actions that employees are taking every day to stay safe. A picture is worth a thousand words.  You could include these in your newsletter.

The most important thing is to remember the potential and the power of good communication. Don’t underestimate this power.  Safety is not just another part of your business; it’s about showing you care for the people and showing them they are worth it.  If you want employees to buy into health and safety, get good at communicating the safety message, it will pay dividends.

 

thanks 1 user thanked wardy for this useful post.
mitchnebosh on 10/02/2021(UTC)
craigroberts76  
#14 Posted : 28 January 2021 13:44:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
craigroberts76

I hope a lot of us are in the same boat, and that know a 40 page document wont save someone, and all the risks in there should already have been covered in other training (PASMA, iPAF, CSCS, WAH etc) and so should be a simple bullet point of the main risks, and what will be done to control them.

If we carry out a job and we use a ladder, scissor lift and a scaffold tower, then the RAMS will contain these 3 pages, as each carries specific risks to the users and others.  Whats the point of attending training courses if a risk assesment covers all the training?

As soon as managers start to realise that the paper trail will mean nothing in court if theres an accident because what was carried out and what is in the document differ the better.  As said above, just because its in the book, doesnt mean its carried out that way and safe.

Simple risks, simple method statements and a good show of ability on site is best.

thanks 1 user thanked craigroberts76 for this useful post.
aud on 02/02/2021(UTC)
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