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Alan Haynes  
#41 Posted : 23 February 2021 08:01:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

I think the vaccination requirement to have a foreign holiday will not be for leaving the UK, but for entering some countr[es. Greece has been pushing for one to speed up letting people in for holidays. https://www.google.co.uk...israel-as-trial-run/amp/

Edited by user 23 February 2021 08:02:41(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

Holliday42333  
#42 Posted : 23 February 2021 08:46:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: SLord80 Go to Quoted Post
Which vaccines are currently compulsory for foreign travel? I’m just curious as I’ve had a quick search but struggling to find any.

I found lots of information quite quickly actually.  Most common is a requirement for a Yellow Fever vaccination.  Needing one depends both on the contry you are going to as well as the country you are comming from.  Otherwise a vaccination is just reccomended.

From an NHS Site "A yellow fever vaccine called Stamaril® is available to protect you against yellow fever. In addition, certain countries require you to produce a yellow fever certificate to enter the country. Please refer to the individual country pages for disease information and certificate requirements."

From a travel information site "Some of the countries that may require you to show a yellow fever certificate include Australia, India, Egypt, China, the Bahamas, Mexico and the Philippines."

SLord80  
#43 Posted : 23 February 2021 08:54:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SLord80

Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SLord80 Go to Quoted Post
Which vaccines are currently compulsory for foreign travel? I’m just curious as I’ve had a quick search but struggling to find any.
I found lots of information quite quickly actually. Most common is a requirement for a Yellow Fever vaccination. Needing one depends both on the contry you are going to as well as the country you are comming from. Otherwise a vaccination is just reccomended.From an NHS Site "Ayellow fever vaccinecalled Stamaril® is available to protect you against yellow fever. In addition, certain countries require you to produce a yellow fever certificate to enter the country. Please refer to the individualcountry pagesfor disease information and certificate requirements."From a travel information site "Some of the countries that may require you to show a yellow fever certificate include Australia, India, Egypt, China, the Bahamas, Mexico and the Philippines."
Yes I found that link of course, but I was looking for which vaccines are mandatory if I wish to go to a country. I can’t find any, can you? The countries you listed don’t seem to mandate them for travellers from England, from what I can see? And certainly having been to a couple of the countries on the list, I wasn’t required to show any proof of vaccination. So no evidence of mandatory vaccines?
Holliday42333  
#44 Posted : 23 February 2021 09:00:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: SLord80 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SLord80 Go to Quoted Post
Which vaccines are currently compulsory for foreign travel? I’m just curious as I’ve had a quick search but struggling to find any.
I found lots of information quite quickly actually. Most common is a requirement for a Yellow Fever vaccination. Needing one depends both on the contry you are going to as well as the country you are comming from. Otherwise a vaccination is just reccomended.From an NHS Site "Ayellow fever vaccinecalled Stamaril® is available to protect you against yellow fever. In addition, certain countries require you to produce a yellow fever certificate to enter the country. Please refer to the individualcountry pagesfor disease information and certificate requirements."From a travel information site "Some of the countries that may require you to show a yellow fever certificate include Australia, India, Egypt, China, the Bahamas, Mexico and the Philippines."

Yes I found that link of course, but I was looking for which vaccines are mandatory if I wish to go to a country. I can’t find any, can you? The countries you listed don’t seem to mandate them for travellers from England, from what I can see? And certainly having been to a couple of the countries on the list, I wasn’t required to show any proof of vaccination. So no evidence of mandatory vaccines?

Plenty of evidence for mandatory vaccines in a global context.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

CptBeaky  
#45 Posted : 23 February 2021 09:05:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

I thought that Saudi Arabia requires proof of vaccination against certain types of meningits for visitors arriving for the Hajj and Umrah pilgrimages. Proof would suggest mandatory.

SLord80  
#46 Posted : 23 February 2021 12:33:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SLord80

Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SLord80 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Holliday42333 <img src="/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif" title="Go to Quoted Post" alt="Go to Quoted Post">Originally Posted by: SLord80 <img src="/Themes/iosh2/icon_latest_reply.gif" title="Go to Quoted Post" alt="Go to Quoted Post">Which vaccines are currently compulsory for foreign travel? I’m just curious as I’ve had a quick search but struggling to find any. I found lots of information quite quickly actually. Most common is a requirement for a Yellow Fever vaccination. Needing one depends both on the contry you are going to as well as the country you are comming from. Otherwise a vaccination is just reccomended.From an NHS Site "Ayellow fever vaccinecalled Stamaril® is available to protect you against yellow fever. In addition, certain countries require you to produce a yellow fever certificate to enter the country. Please refer to the individualcountry pagesfor disease information and certificate requirements."From a travel information site "Some of the countries that may require you to show a yellow fever certificate include Australia, India, Egypt, China, the Bahamas, Mexico and the Philippines." Yes I found that link of course, but I was looking for which vaccines are mandatory if I wish to go to a country. I can’t find any, can you? The countries you listed don’t seem to mandate them for travellers from England, from what I can see? And certainly having been to a couple of the countries on the list, I wasn’t required to show any proof of vaccination. So no evidence of mandatory vaccines?
Plenty of evidence for mandatory vaccines in a global context.I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
The point is that an unlicensed vaccine is looking likely to be made mandatory, for which there seems to be no logical reason for doing so as the current evidence shows it only protects the person themselves. It will be interesting to see how the first case plays out in court. I feel like there can only be 1 outcome but nothing surprises me these days. Uptake amongst healthcare professionals currently stand at around 70% according to the government. Which makes sense considering the drastic outcome for many NHS staff during the vaccination throughout Sars cov 1. More coercion by Chris Whitty telling doctors they have a responsibility to get vaccinated.
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CptBeaky  
#47 Posted : 23 February 2021 12:58:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Unlicensed is not relevant, since it has been tested, and is still undergoing mass scrutiny.

Recent studies sure it reduces transmission . Therefore it does protect other people. Although this has yet to be peer reviewed. However it looks promising.

The vaccines reduce hospitalisation and death by 85% (pfizer) and 94% (AZ), this will free up resources to help other people, thus reducing excess deaths in other areas, and increasing resources for mental health. Also this will allow the economy to re-open which a lot of people seem to be very keen on. For reference currently we have 18,462 people in hospital with COVID-19, this would be roughly 1,846 if the population was completely vaccinated.

Not sure how it can be argued that it only protects the person having the vaccine. When you take all of this into account it is not that surpring that some businesses want to make them mandatory, since it will reduce sick days and will reduce the risk of it spreadin in the workforce.

All that being said, it should still be optional. But the choice should be based on facts, not mis-information

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A Kurdziel on 23/02/2021(UTC)
John Murray  
#48 Posted : 23 February 2021 15:10:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

If that making-vaccinations-mandatory is legislated, it opens the door for a whole range of workplace vaccinations, of which covid is just one. Since evidence, so far, is that vaccination only reduces the chance of illness becoming serious enough for hospitalisation to be needed. So far we have only had that plumber pr** in London saying all employees will have to be vaccinated, but plenty more are waiting in-the-wings. Still waiting for evidencial confirmation that vaccination reduces the viral load enough for the person vaccinmated to be unable to pass the infection to others. the New England Journal of Medicine has an interesting paper out...ish...

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2036242?articleTools=true

AND .. I got another letter from the headbangers in London (govt) saying that EVEN THOUGH I HAVE HAD THE VACCINE, I should follow the rules and not go out too far, wash my hands repeatedly (what's remaining of them) and not get too close to anyone. Letter valid until 31st March. Another will follow around then advising the same, probably until the date of my funeral.

All because the PTB did not follow expert advice back at the start of last year, and are STILL not following that same advice, which has been updated. This country could save a fortune by not hiring/paying experts, and just enlisting the bar drunk from down the road....when they open them again.

Anyway, until Lockdown IV: Boris Rides Out, the sequel

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biker1 on 23/02/2021(UTC)
biker1  
#49 Posted : 23 February 2021 16:41:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

I sympathise John. My wife has had a similar letter today that she needs to shield until the end of March. Good to see that they're on the ball, a year down the line (not).

CptBeaky  
#50 Posted : 25 February 2021 10:02:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

The regional government of Galicia, a region in northwestern Spain, has announced plans to make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for all of its 2.7 million inhabitants, threatening hefty fines for “unjustified” refusal to be inoculated.

Meanwhile in a recent survey 56% of UK residents (over 1,000 surveyed) said that the vaccine should be mandatory. It looks like those of us here saying they shouldn't be are a minority!

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biker1 on 25/02/2021(UTC), Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC)
biker1  
#51 Posted : 25 February 2021 10:30:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

I think this will be an argument that rumbles on. There is an intuitive argument for mandatory vaccination to protect society, but on the other hand there is an obstacle regarding medical ethics, since it is essentially an invasive procedure, which therefore needs patient consent. I see that the lawyers have got involved, so here comes months of legal arguments. My own view is that unless you have a valid medical reason for not getting the vaccination, there is a compelling argument for it to be mandatory. The situation we are in with the pandemic is unprecedented in living memory, so all bets are off.

Roundtuit  
#52 Posted : 25 February 2021 10:40:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Spain was an earlier adopter of "Presumed Consent" for organ donation. A country controlled for many decades by General Franco a dictator who set a lot of their legislative practices in to place.

Israel is reported to have published a new law allowing the name and contact details of those who are not innoculated to be distributed. What was that saying about failing to learn from history?

Interstingly in the debate about a vaccination passport one reporter reminded us of the backlash against a certain T Blair when he tried to push through a National Identity Card - there but in name.

"It could be added to the NHS app" EXCEPT not everyone has a smartphone, has the app or wants to risk the loss of private data through device theft - politicians need to get ther heads and ideas out of the mire that is Social Media.

Roundtuit  
#53 Posted : 25 February 2021 10:40:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Spain was an earlier adopter of "Presumed Consent" for organ donation. A country controlled for many decades by General Franco a dictator who set a lot of their legislative practices in to place.

Israel is reported to have published a new law allowing the name and contact details of those who are not innoculated to be distributed. What was that saying about failing to learn from history?

Interstingly in the debate about a vaccination passport one reporter reminded us of the backlash against a certain T Blair when he tried to push through a National Identity Card - there but in name.

"It could be added to the NHS app" EXCEPT not everyone has a smartphone, has the app or wants to risk the loss of private data through device theft - politicians need to get ther heads and ideas out of the mire that is Social Media.

N Hancock  
#54 Posted : 25 February 2021 11:20:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Lets be clear what Israel is doing, implementing apartheid. Do we want a two class society here ?

So all these people who wont be able to work and have a life in the future, what next ? Ghettos ?

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N Hancock  
#55 Posted : 25 February 2021 11:26:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

The regional government of Galicia, a region in northwestern Spain, has announced plans to make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for all of its 2.7 million inhabitants, threatening hefty fines for “unjustified” refusal to be inoculated.

Meanwhile in a recent survey 56% of UK residents (over 1,000 surveyed) said that the vaccine should be mandatory. It looks like those of us here saying they shouldn't be are a minority!

Who did they ask ? For every poll that says that there will be one which says the oppsotite.  Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice'.

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Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC), The Iron Chicken on 28/02/2021(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#56 Posted : 25 February 2021 11:51:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Quote:

Who did they ask?

"a base sample of 1,000+ adults in .... between 16-74 in the United Kingdom, The samples in ... the U.K. can be taken as representative of the general adult population in these countries under the age of 75."

67% strongly agree that "If a COVID-19 vaccine was available to me, I would get it", along with 22% that somewhat agree. Suggesting that uptake is likely to be around 89%. This is the highest of the 15 countries surveyed, and is very encouraging.

At this level we would be well above the herd immunity levels required, so that those few that cannot/will not take it are still protected. I think this shows why mandatory vaccines may not even be necessary here. I think if the uptake is especially low the converstion would have to be very different. My biggest concern is that people will not get the second jab, for various reasons.

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biker1 on 25/02/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#57 Posted : 25 February 2021 11:58:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Do they want a two class society here ? So all these people who wont be able to work and have a life in the future, what next ? Ghettos ?

Already present & correct along with a huge concrete wall that DJT was very jealous of.

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Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC), Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#58 Posted : 25 February 2021 11:58:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Do they want a two class society here ? So all these people who wont be able to work and have a life in the future, what next ? Ghettos ?

Already present & correct along with a huge concrete wall that DJT was very jealous of.

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Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC), Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC)
biker1  
#59 Posted : 25 February 2021 12:11:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

The regional government of Galicia, a region in northwestern Spain, has announced plans to make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for all of its 2.7 million inhabitants, threatening hefty fines for “unjustified” refusal to be inoculated.

Meanwhile in a recent survey 56% of UK residents (over 1,000 surveyed) said that the vaccine should be mandatory. It looks like those of us here saying they shouldn't be are a minority!

Who did they ask ? For every poll that says that there will be one which says the oppsotite.  Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice'.

The problem is that other people might have to pay a heavy price for your free choice, but there you go.
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Alan Haynes on 25/02/2021(UTC), CptBeaky on 25/02/2021(UTC)
Alan Haynes  
#60 Posted : 25 February 2021 12:14:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alan Haynes

I recognise this in an emotive matter, but ........

I see very little wrong in requiring that NEW employees be vaccinated, if that's what an employer wants - as long as those with certificated medical reasons [but not personal whim] are exempted from the requirement.

Obviously, I would have a [legal] problem with an employer imposing the requirement on existing employees, however, I can forsee a goverment imposing the requirement in the Health and Care sector, but hopefully with a log enough lead time for 'non-takers to sort out alternatives, including transfer to non public facing positions.

I am now at the age [dotage?] when my daughter says "Don't worry about getting too old, when it happens I'll find a nice cheap Care Home for you to go to".  I think she is joking, but I would [will?] be asking whether the care home staff are vaccinated, before going into any such place.

Similarly, if I was still recruiting staff, I would ask the question.  The answer would be included in my considerations.

As someone who has spent the last year shielding, my opinion of anti-vaxers and the "I'll wait to see what happens" and the "Only if I can choose which vaccine" people is unfortunately not repeatable on a public forum.

----------------------

As an aside - a couple of years ago, when on holiday in Italy I saw a 'Proclamation' from the Italian authorities in Lombardia [and possibly nationwide] that required that studends attending schools to be vaccinated against measles [I think it was measles].  Students not vaccinated were to be sent home.  Those below about 11 yrs would have to be home schooled, and older student's parents would  also face significant continuing fines for each child not attending school.  Not sure how it worked out, but it does provide a pointer on how Covid vaccinations may progress.

Anyway - had my first jab 3 weeks ago - never seen so many smiling faces in one place for a very long time.  Next one due 21st April at 11.45pm.  And I fully expect to have an annual booster, like the flu jab.

Edited by user 25 February 2021 12:27:52(UTC)  | Reason: typos

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N Hancock  
#61 Posted : 25 February 2021 12:37:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

The regional government of Galicia, a region in northwestern Spain, has announced plans to make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for all of its 2.7 million inhabitants, threatening hefty fines for “unjustified” refusal to be inoculated.

Meanwhile in a recent survey 56% of UK residents (over 1,000 surveyed) said that the vaccine should be mandatory. It looks like those of us here saying they shouldn't be are a minority!

Who did they ask ? For every poll that says that there will be one which says the oppsotite.  Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice'.

The problem is that other people might have to pay a heavy price for your free choice, but there you go.

A) I dont care

B) So why is it a choice ? a choice should be free of punishment ??

And when no ones employs the unvaccinated what then ?  Answer that .. Do we go on the dole or what ?

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The Iron Chicken on 28/02/2021(UTC)
CptBeaky  
#62 Posted : 25 February 2021 12:55:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

To be honest, I am not sure I would want to employ someone that doesn't care when their actions could negatively impact someone elses health. Choices are rarely consequence free, I don't see why this choice should be any different. The idea that "choice should be free of punishment" is naive. Many choices people make will negatively impact their lives. Getting a face tattoo of the queen having a poo is legal, but don't expect to have the same chance of being employed if you make that choice.

Maybe the answer is  people that refuse (as opposed to cannot have) the vaccine should be asked to continue with the other control measures until we are ready to face a world in which COVID is a controlled part of life. But considering those against vaccines also tend to be the ones against masks, lockdowns and other measures I, for one, cannot see how these people expect us to move forward.

Vaccines should be optional, but protecting society shouldn't be up for debate. If you refuse the vaccine I would fully expect you to continue with mask wearing, social distancing and avoiding crowded spaces for the foreseeable future, voluntarily.

Roundtuit  
#63 Posted : 25 February 2021 13:10:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Every dictator is merely protecting their society even if that involves gassing, clubbing and incarceration of individuals - after all it is the society they control which matters.

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Roundtuit  
#64 Posted : 25 February 2021 13:10:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Every dictator is merely protecting their society even if that involves gassing, clubbing and incarceration of individuals - after all it is the society they control which matters.

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N Hancock  
#65 Posted : 25 February 2021 13:14:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

To be honest, I am not sure I would want to employ someone that doesn't care when their actions could negatively impact someone elses health. Choices are rarely consequence free, I don't see why this choice should be any different. The idea that "choice should be free of punishment" is naive. Many choices people make will negatively impact their lives. Getting a face tattoo of the queen having a poo is legal, but don't expect to have the same chance of being employed if you make that choice.

Maybe the answer is  people that refuse (as opposed to cannot have) the vaccine should be asked to continue with the other control measures until we are ready to face a world in which COVID is a controlled part of life. But considering those against vaccines also tend to be the ones against masks, lockdowns and other measures I, for one, cannot see how these people expect us to move forward.

Vaccines should be optional, but protecting society shouldn't be up for debate. If you refuse the vaccine I would fully expect you to continue with mask wearing, social distancing and avoiding crowded spaces for the foreseeable future, voluntarily.

Why when a vaccinated person can still get covid? (I know of 2, who have had both jabs now positive).  I do agree though with some of your points as I see some covid measures for what they are, absolute nonsense and I simply would not / don't comply.

But the fact remains, if there is vaccination choice in this so called free country it should not prevent living and working for most (foreign travel is another thing entirely).  

 

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John Murray  
#66 Posted : 25 February 2021 13:17:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

67% strongly agree that "If a COVID-19 vaccine was available to me, I would get it", along with 22% that somewhat agree. Suggesting that uptake is likely to be around 89%. This is the highest of the 15 countries surveyed, and is very encouraging.

Vaccine uptake in the BAME community is around 57%.

Since a high percentage of the care-homes-staff are from that community, I see problems (locally, there are already problems with some staff refusing the vaccine) (since they're part-time workers, their work time has been reduced to zero hours)

The herd-immunity percentage, in light of mutant variations is supposedly around 80%.

Vaccine effectiveness is around 72% after 21 days with both vaccines, and the period of time being lengthened between injections seems to make little difference, with effectiveness after second injection being 90%+ (100% for reduction of serious illness)

John Murray  
#67 Posted : 25 February 2021 13:22:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

"Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice' "

That's your choice.

How long will you wait?  Some long-term effects are not known for decades! Some [others] may pay the ultimate penalty for your free choice.

N Hancock  
#68 Posted : 25 February 2021 13:39:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Originally Posted by: John Murray Go to Quoted Post

"Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice' "

That's your choice.

How long will you wait?  Some long-term effects are not known for decades! Some [others] may pay the ultimate penalty for your free choice.

I will have it when I feel comfortable with it, not because of coercion and vaccine apartheid. It maybe next year, 5 years, who knows.  Please note ive had all my other vacs.

I am not concerned with those who may the price, it’s my health I am worried about. Likewise, you don’t value my right to choose something which isn’t mandatory so why should I care ?

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biker1  
#69 Posted : 25 February 2021 13:51:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

The regional government of Galicia, a region in northwestern Spain, has announced plans to make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for all of its 2.7 million inhabitants, threatening hefty fines for “unjustified” refusal to be inoculated.

Meanwhile in a recent survey 56% of UK residents (over 1,000 surveyed) said that the vaccine should be mandatory. It looks like those of us here saying they shouldn't be are a minority!

Who did they ask ? For every poll that says that there will be one which says the oppsotite.  Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice'.

The problem is that other people might have to pay a heavy price for your free choice, but there you go.

A) I dont care

B) So why is it a choice ? a choice should be free of punishment ??

And when no ones employs the unvaccinated what then ?  Answer that .. Do we go on the dole or what ?

Your answer to A makes me wonder if you work in health and safety, and if so, why.
N Hancock  
#70 Posted : 25 February 2021 14:22:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
N Hancock

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: N Hancock Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post

The regional government of Galicia, a region in northwestern Spain, has announced plans to make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory for all of its 2.7 million inhabitants, threatening hefty fines for “unjustified” refusal to be inoculated.

Meanwhile in a recent survey 56% of UK residents (over 1,000 surveyed) said that the vaccine should be mandatory. It looks like those of us here saying they shouldn't be are a minority!

Who did they ask ? For every poll that says that there will be one which says the oppsotite.  Do we not own our bodies in 2021.  I will not be taking the vaccine this year, I will until longer effects are known.  I will no doubt have to pay a heavy price for my 'free choice'.

The problem is that other people might have to pay a heavy price for your free choice, but there you go.

A) I dont care

B) So why is it a choice ? a choice should be free of punishment ??

And when no ones employs the unvaccinated what then ?  Answer that .. Do we go on the dole or what ?

Your answer to A makes me wonder if you work in health and safety, and if so, why.

Yes, I have worked in the field since 2006, educated to BSc (Hons) & MSc in the subject before that. CMIOSH since 2016.

Public Health (and my health) though is a different matter.

biker1  
#71 Posted : 25 February 2021 16:24:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Without pointing the finger, I think those who, without a valid medical reason, take the standpoint of refusing the vaccine have missed the point somewhere along the line. That famous pop group leader with attitude, Liam Gallagher, went on record that he would not be wearing a mask etc, and if he got COVID, it would be 'on him'. Well no, sunshine, it will be also be on everyone else who comes into contact with you. Vaccination, face masks, hand washing/sanitising, social distancing are all parts of the measures to contain the spread of the virus, and eventually control it.

It is worth noting that the incidence of colds, flu, and even Sepsis have reduced significantly as a side effect of the precautions for COVID. Masks and hand sanitising have helped to reduce common infections. As for vaccination, I have had the flu jab for many years, not just because I don't want flu, but to avoid getting it and passing it on to my wife, who is vulnerable. I will adopt the same philosophy with regards to COVID vaccinations. Thankfully, I didn't get a reaction to the first vaccination recently, but even if I did, it would not deter me from having the second, and any further, vaccination. A temporary reaction is a small price to pay to help protect other peoples' lives. It's a shame that there are people who don't think like this, and instead think up excuses for not being vaccinated.

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Alan Haynes on 25/02/2021(UTC), John Murray on 26/02/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#72 Posted : 25 February 2021 20:01:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Why should I need a valid medical reason to exercise my right not to have an invasive procedure conducted upon my person? You may have been under MO's orders during your army days, that service being for "Queen, Country and ...... permitting our right to say NO!"

Personally I am awaiting my call up to be jabbed.

As an ex-smoker of forty years I choose not to be one of those lecturing others about their choices or espousing the "greater good". The latter is normally a call to arms of the vocal minority as recently demonstrated by a French Mayor banning meat from school dinners (sure Cpt Beaky would like that one).

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Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC), SLord80 on 26/02/2021(UTC), The Iron Chicken on 28/02/2021(UTC), Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC), SLord80 on 26/02/2021(UTC), The Iron Chicken on 28/02/2021(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#73 Posted : 25 February 2021 20:01:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Why should I need a valid medical reason to exercise my right not to have an invasive procedure conducted upon my person? You may have been under MO's orders during your army days, that service being for "Queen, Country and ...... permitting our right to say NO!"

Personally I am awaiting my call up to be jabbed.

As an ex-smoker of forty years I choose not to be one of those lecturing others about their choices or espousing the "greater good". The latter is normally a call to arms of the vocal minority as recently demonstrated by a French Mayor banning meat from school dinners (sure Cpt Beaky would like that one).

thanks 6 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC), SLord80 on 26/02/2021(UTC), The Iron Chicken on 28/02/2021(UTC), Dazzling Puddock on 26/02/2021(UTC), SLord80 on 26/02/2021(UTC), The Iron Chicken on 28/02/2021(UTC)
Brian Hagyard  
#74 Posted : 26 February 2021 10:51:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Making things compulsory is always tricky – look at seat belts in cars or crash helmets on motorbikes? But at least with those you have a choice put on the belt or don’t drive the car etc.  A little like smoking in pubs – yes I could have stayed away because I don’t like cigarettes and I believe they cause ill health so was banning them abuse of a smoker’s human rights or the protection of my rights to be able to go to the pub?. With vaccination, I have mixed feelings. If we knew the vaccine worked 100%, I would say, great, your choice, you get sick while I will have the jab; thank you. But at the moment, we don’t think that’s the case. Mass vaccination appears to reduce not only the severity of illness but also transmission.  This suggests to me that some vulnerable people could still catch covid and die – so do you have the right to refuse the vaccination and unknowingly pass it on to someone? And what are the alternative if you don’t have the vaccine ? Should we lock you away or maybe get you a bell to ring as you walk around?  It’s a real dilemma and one I don’t have an answer to. My hope is that those scientists who are saying covid will become like flu whereby many people die each year – but not in the numbers we see now, and the NHS can cope with the overall demands on their services.

I do have a view on mass testing – I have seen reports that in Liverpool, it was only 40% accurate, and while initially, numbers of cases went down – they quickly went back up with the rest of the country.  I have already seen people ignore social distancing and say, “it’s OK, I was tested –ve”. For me benefits of mass testing have not been proved so I would not make that compulsory.

biker1  
#75 Posted : 26 February 2021 12:03:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

I agree Brian that it is a bit of a moral dilemma. Re your comparison with seat belt and crash helmet law - I have to own up that I was in the Motorcyle Action Group in those days, who demonstrated against the helmet law. This was often misunderstood, with people thinking we were against helmets; no, I didn't know anyone who rode a motorbike who didn't wear one, and I certainly wouldn't ride without one. The point was about being compelled to do so, and even now the law is not equal on seat belts and helmets. However, only our own lives were involved. With COVID, it is our own lives, and everyone else's, so a different situation.

I am sure that we will better understand the virus as time goes on, and the role and efficacy of vaccination. At the moment, it is our best hope and is showing high efficiency. Lockdowns have had limited effect, due at least partly to section of society who have flouted them (the personal freedom mantra again). Well, as the old saying goes, with freedom comes responsiblity.

Brian Hagyard  
#76 Posted : 26 February 2021 12:45:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

Originally Posted by: biker1 Go to Quoted Post

 However, only our own lives were involved. With COVID, it is our own lives, and everyone else's, so a different situation.

Thank you biker and yes thats what i was meaning with my examples - but i did waffel on a bit

John Murray  
#77 Posted : 26 February 2021 14:06:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
John Murray

Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Go to Quoted Post

*and the NHS can cope with the overall demands on their services*

I do have a view on mass testing – I have seen reports that in Liverpool, it was only 40% accurate, and while initially, numbers of cases went down – they quickly went back up with the rest of the country.  I have already seen people ignore social distancing and say, “it’s OK, I was tested –ve”. For me benefits of mass testing have not been proved so I would not make that compulsory.

The NHS can barely cope, most years, with the winter flu.

Bed occupancy was 87% in Week *49 of 2020* This compares to 95% occupancy in Week *49 of 2019*

Can't fill beds if there are no trained staff to look after the occupants. God knows what would have happened if the nightingale units had ended-up being staffed by squaddies.

Loads of grim stats. https://www.nuffieldtrus...tivity-and-waiting-times

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biker1 on 26/02/2021(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#78 Posted : 26 February 2021 14:41:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I am sorry but this is simply a lie “as a vaccine which doesn’t stop the spread of a virus and that can lead to serious disability or death.” .

The vaccine will limit the spread of the disease. If people don’t get the disease, they can’t spread it. There is evidence that any of the vaccines currently,  on offer pose any significant risk of disability or death.

The vaccine is not perfect, at best it is 90% effective, and the virus will mutate  but what is the alternative? We cannot remain in lockdown forever nor can we allow thousands of people to die by doing nothing.

 

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biker1 on 26/02/2021(UTC)
biker1  
#79 Posted : 26 February 2021 15:24:55(UTC)
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biker1

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

I am sorry but this is simply a lie “as a vaccine which doesn’t stop the spread of a virus and that can lead to serious disability or death.” .

The vaccine will limit the spread of the disease. If people don’t get the disease, they can’t spread it. There is evidence that any of the vaccines currently,  on offer pose any significant risk of disability or death.

The vaccine is not perfect, at best it is 90% effective, and the virus will mutate  but what is the alternative? We cannot remain in lockdown forever nor can we allow thousands of people to die by doing nothing.

 

I think you meant 'there is no evidence that any of the vaccines.....' Or at least, that's what I hope you meant.
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A Kurdziel on 01/03/2021(UTC)
achrn  
#80 Posted : 26 February 2021 16:09:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

The vaccine will limit the spread of the disease. If people don’t get the disease, they can’t spread it.

 

Actually, I don't think that's been established yet.  (Quite apart from not understanding what 'the vaccine' means - any and all approved covid vaccines?  Approved by whom?)

It has been established that you can be an asymptomatic carrier of the disease.  You can carry the virus and not have 'the disease'.

I think there are some remaining questions about whether the vaccines affect the rate of carriers in the same way as they affect the rate of people having symptoms (or severe symptoms).  There are particularly recent questions about whether the american single-dose only-needs-basic-refrigeration vaccine prevents you contracting the disease or whether it 'only' prevents you getting severe symptoms (turning the virus into something of an annoyance rather than a life-threatening illness). 

To my mind, a vaccine that didn't need a dedicated distribution chanel, and only needed a single dose, and was very much cheaper than the others, but which converts the risk of Covid from being dead to having some sniffles for a couple of days is more use (worldwide) than one that ensures you never contract and never transmit Covid but needs all those fancy (and expensive) things.  Such a vaccine, however, would not "limit the spread of the disease".

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SLord80 on 26/02/2021(UTC)
biker1  
#81 Posted : 26 February 2021 16:43:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Interesting questions achrn. Asymptomatic spread is a risk with a lot of diseases, but we might find, with increased understanding of coronavirus, some sort of pattern to this. Take the common cold (yes, I know, a rhino virus rather than a coronavirus, but a virus nonetheless). Someone with a cold can be infectious for some time before and after the appearance of symptoms. Spread of, for instance, flu is more likely if the affected person has symptoms, and is therefore coughing and sneezing, since the modes of transmission are more vigorous, but they could potentially be infectious outside these periods of symptoms. It's just the opportunities to spread it are less. This just confirms the wisdom of continuing with the other precautions of face coverings and hand washing/sanitising). A salutory thought that perhaps we should have been doing such things with respect to existing common illnesses, rather than seeing such precautions now as draconian.

A Kurdziel  
#82 Posted : 26 February 2021 16:48:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Vaccines stop the spread of a virus that is how we stopped smallpox. To spread  a virus needs to reproduce  in a host ie a person. A vaccine causes the host to produce antibodies  which takes out the virus before it can reproduce. No reproduction no spread. It’s how immunity works.  Some vaccines are 100% effective such as the smallpox vaccine. The vaccines that have been developed for   COVID-19 are less so. There therefore is a possibility that someone may still get infected but be asymptomatic ( upto probably 70% of people who get the virus are asymptomatic)  those people will still pass on the virus but if  everybody is vaccinated the vaccine will have less chance to spread and the R-number will be well below 1.0, so the number of cases will decline. The virus will reman endemic, with a small proportion of the population(less than 0.01%)  at any one time with the virus. What the number will settle on will (should) be the basis for what the government will do next. If it drops to a very low number, they may drop all other controls but on the other hand if it is a bit higher, they may retain controls for the vulnerable groups who are at greatest risk from the virus (over 70’s, people in hospitals etc). If a new variant  strain appears that the vaccine is not effective against, we may have to go back into lockdown, we don’t know.

The vaccines provide the best  chance of getting back to something resembling normality. Without them we would basically be screwed. 

PS I used to be a virologist working with viruses, including respiratory viruses.

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CptBeaky on 01/03/2021(UTC)
SLord80  
#83 Posted : 26 February 2021 22:05:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SLord80

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post
Tobe honest, I am not sure I would want to employ someone that doesn't care when their actions could negatively impact someone elses health. Choices are rarely consequence free, I don't see why this choice should be any different. The idea that "choice should be free of punishment" is naive. Many choices people make will negatively impact their lives. Getting a face tattoo of the queen having a poois legal, but don't expect to have the same chance of being employed if you make that choice.Maybe the answer is people that refuse (as opposed to cannot have) the vaccineshould be asked to continue with the other control measures until we areready to face a world in which COVID is a controlled part of life. But considering those against vaccines also tend to be the ones against masks, lockdowns and other measures I, for one, cannot see how these people expect us to move forward.Vaccines should be optional, but protecting society shouldn't be up for debate. If you refuse the vaccine I would fully expect you to continue with mask wearing, social distancing and avoiding crowded spaces for the foreseeable future, voluntarily.
You and many other forumers seem to be forgetting that the vaccinations can be harmful, even deadly. If they where harmless, there would be a valid argument to making them compulsory. Is it right for 10 people to die in other to save 100? Considering there is also no evidence that the vaccinations stop the transmission of covid, it’s a bit strange that you keep implying a persons refusal could lead to the death of another person, when this could be the same as a vaccinated person, this risk isn’t reduced.
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The Iron Chicken on 28/02/2021(UTC)
SLord80  
#84 Posted : 26 February 2021 22:22:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SLord80

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post
Unlicensed is not relevant, since it has been tested, and is still undergoing mass scrutiny.Recent studies sure it reduces transmission. Therefore it does protect other people. Although this has yet to be peer reviewed. However it looks promising.The vaccines reduce hospitalisation and death by85% (pfizer) and 94% (AZ), this will free up resources to helpother people, thus reducing excess deaths in other areas, and increasing resources for mental health. Also this will allow the economy to re-open which a lot of people seem to be very keen on. For reference currently we have 18,462people in hospital with COVID-19, this would be roughly 1,846 if the population was completely vaccinated.Not sure how it can be argued that it only protects the person having the vaccine. When you take all of this into account it is not that surpring that some businesses want to make them mandatory, since it will reduce sick days and will reduce the risk of it spreadin in the workforce.All that being said, it should still be optional. But the choice should be based on facts, not mis-information
Please don’t spread misinformation. You’ve said the vaccine reduces death by 85% and referenced Pfizer - this is categorically false. Additionally, how you can claim its ‘irrelevant’ that a vaccine is licensed is astounding. The vaccine literally doesn’t have a license because of a lack of safety data - yet that’s irrelevant? Seriously? The figures for patients in hospital with covid are not so reliable - if I go on a run tonight, fall over and break my arm, and then test positive for covid on my arrival to hospital I’m included in the statistics, although zero symptoms. The actual figure of patients in hospital with covid19 will inevitable be a lower number. Completely agree - the choice should be based on facts. That’s why my mind boggles that if you dare mention that a vaccine may lead to death or serious harm/injury your an anti vaxxer, even though this is undisputed fact.
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The Iron Chicken on 28/02/2021(UTC)
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