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firesafety101  
#1 Posted : 17 April 2025 09:06:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Mornning.

Has anyone began changing their H&S Policy to consider this new ruling and considering which areas Trangender employees and/or visitors/members of the public can be allowed to enter.

I'm especially interested in places of entertainment i.e. football and other stadia.

The new Everton stadium has three types of toilet, Male, Female and Other. (Ahead of the game for once).

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 17 April 2025 09:29:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning firesafety

I assume that most organisations will be avoiding taking knee jerk decisions on the basis of this judgment and will wait to see the changes to guidance to be published by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.

However, there has been a trend over at least two decades towards including more unisex toilets in facilities, even if those have tended to be those designed for disabled users - though often not designated only for use by the disabled.

A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 17 April 2025 09:49:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The ruling has nothing to do with removing Equality and diversity policies as is happening  in the US of A.  All the judges have said is that when reading the Equality Act( and I assume other legislation) when it says “women” it refers to  a person biological sex which you cannot change with a declaration that you identify as a women.  They have emphasised that if someone identifies as transgender they should not be discriminated against, which is what the Equality Act already says. In the case of Everton stadium’s state of the art toilets what it means that it is perfectly acceptable to say that the only people that can use the women’s toilets are people who were born a woman.     

Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 17 April 2025 12:01:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The Everton toilets will have been completed in accordance with Approved Document T (October 2024) which like all other guidance is not retrospective on existing workplace provision.

Toilet & changing facilities have and will remain a contentious issue given HR spent decades and reams of paper picking the easy route.

Most companies will be awaiting the raft of consulatnt guidance cascading from this decision before comitting anything in writing.

Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 17 April 2025 12:01:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The Everton toilets will have been completed in accordance with Approved Document T (October 2024) which like all other guidance is not retrospective on existing workplace provision.

Toilet & changing facilities have and will remain a contentious issue given HR spent decades and reams of paper picking the easy route.

Most companies will be awaiting the raft of consulatnt guidance cascading from this decision before comitting anything in writing.

A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 17 April 2025 12:42:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The document mentioned-Requirement T1: Toilet accommodation,  describes how toilets should be designed and built but not how they should be used. It does refer to single sex toilets and states “The layout when entering, exiting and using a toilet room or cubicle should cater for the safety, privacy and dignity of users. Cubicle doors should only open into single-sex toilet accommodation” Following yesterday’s ruling we can now assume that  sex means biological sex, not self defined sex which is what the contentious Scottish legislation was implying.

WatsonD  
#7 Posted : 17 April 2025 14:21:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

I assmue the 'other' WC's in this case is intended for those that identify as non-binary rather than those who are transgender.

At the end of the day when it comes to the toilets its impossible to police. 

For one example, plenty of mums without a male with them take their young sons into female toilets with them and the same with dads on their own with young daughters needing the toilet. This is simply a matter of common sense.

The only time this will have any bearing in WC's is in the event of a incident or complaint. And good luck to those who have to investigate that in a workplace setting

Kate  
#8 Posted : 17 April 2025 18:17:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

What exactly has this got to do with health and safety?

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 18/04/2025(UTC)
firesafety101  
#9 Posted : 18 April 2025 10:22:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I think there is the assumption that the Equality Act is a piece of H&S legilation, which it is not.  There is a lot of interaction between the two and the H&S manager usually gets the issues.  I would think both come under HR?

Mirin  
#10 Posted : 18 April 2025 20:51:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mirin

Looking at the OP I wonder if 

The relevant legislation is the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992. Regulation 20, Sanitary conveniences, states:

  1. Suitable and sufficient sanitary conveniences shall be provided at readily accessible places.
  2. Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), sanitary conveniences shall not be suitable unless -
    1. the rooms containing them are adequately ventilated and lit;
    2. they and the rooms containing them are kept in a clean and orderly condition; and
    3. separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside.
Kate  
#11 Posted : 19 April 2025 08:45:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Indeed, the Workplace regs do mention separate facilities for men and women.  But as far as I know it has never been an H&S specialism or responsibility to determine precisely who belongs in each category or to police who uses which toilets, and I never seen an H&S policy which attempts to do such personal and sensitive things.

If anyone ever raised a question about such things with me (which they haven't) I would be directing them straight to HR and washing my hands of it.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 19/04/2025(UTC)
peter gotch  
#12 Posted : 19 April 2025 12:29:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Kate

The very first prosecution report that I wrote as an HSE Inspector included charges for inadequate welfare arrangements.

However, to be honest, if the toilets and washing facilities had been fit for purpose I wouldn't have been particularly bothered about which sex was to use them.

....and perhaps strangely, nobody suggested that as a male HSE Inspector that I shouldn't be looking at what the facilities were like when they were clearly designated for use by women only. Someone from management would check that a woman's dignity was not about to be compromised but nothing in Section 20 of the HSWA restricted my powers of entry to NOT cover facilities for the other sex. 

Then when I moved out of HSE and it came to recruiting there came the time when we were looking to add to our team. One structural engineer asked me a question:

"Have you found someone yet?"

"Yes"

"What's his name?" - this person should probably have known better.

"HER name if X and HER name if Y".

"But they will have to inspect constuction sites?"

"Yes, what's the problem?"

"Well sometimes the toilets are, you know, a bit bog standard."

"Well they shouldn't be and if a woman finds them like that, perhaps the Contractor will be even more embarrassed than if I tell them this."

I doubt that this Supreme Court ruling is going to cause many problems except for organisations that can't keep up with the times.

There will be a few women objecting to a transwoman using their facilities (and vice versa for the men) and employers can deal with that, if necessary asking the trans people to use the disabled loos.

However, if the trans person has been integrated into the workforce, I imagine that the complaints will be limited, particularly once things settle down.

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