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peter gotch  
#1 Posted : 22 April 2025 13:54:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

In my intray an invite to pay to attend a course via online training:

"Designing with health and safety in mind", apparently focused on Designer duties under the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015, aka CDM.

Designing with health and safety in mind | IOSH

The ...... course covers the main requirements of current legislation and guidance, analysis of risks and how to reduce them at design stage. 

No indication of the details of the programme, who is tutoring or what their experience is but This course is worth 7.5 hours for your IOSH CPD record so that gives an idea of the number of hours to be included in a single day.

I am struggling to imagine how a delegate could concentrate for 7.5 hours, unless those hours are interrupted by regular breaks in which case some of the hours should NOT count as "CPD", unless it is 7.5 hours within a much longer overall course day, perhaps 8am to 5pm with breaks totalling 90 minutes included in the programme.

Apparently amongst things that delegates will learn are:

  • Apply practical examples of design risk managemen

So, may be building on some message that about roughly half of fatal accidents on construction sites occur as a result of falls telling the audience that if the designer includes for permanent edge protection on a new roof that will save some accidents. Will the delegate then go away and tell housebuilders that all twin pitched roofs on semi detached houses should have edge protection as a standard feature?

......and:

  • Create a package of information for the pre-construction phase documentation.
  • Analyse and create the health and safety information that should be included in the Health and Safety File

Both, I guess the chance to encourage the delegates into simple templated solutions that may lead to bureaucracy being the norm AND a substitute for Designers making sure that structures are inherently safer to work on both during construction and through the lifecycle of each structure.

Also to be covered the consequences of getting it wrong!

  • Understand the implications for failing to design with health and safety in mind.

So, perhaps a reminder that a Designer could be PROSECUTED, but probably not with comment on how VERY, VERY rarely that has happened under three iterations of CDM and over 25 years.

Could you sit at your screen on a remote training course for 7.5 hours in a single day?

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
HSSnail on 23/04/2025(UTC), MikeKelly on 24/04/2025(UTC)
thunderchild  
#2 Posted : 22 April 2025 14:06:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

No, I would be bored stiff and not concentrating or taking in the content.

thanks 1 user thanked thunderchild for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 24/04/2025(UTC)
HSSnail  
#3 Posted : 23 April 2025 13:23:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

I am part of a team that delivers the IOSH Managing Safely course. One option is to do it as a teams course. I point blank refuse to delivery it that way as i believe the ordinance participation is probably the best learning outcome of the course. I feel bad enough for people having to listen to me in a classroom, but to sit staring at me and the power-point on a PC no thanks.

Holliday42333  
#4 Posted : 23 April 2025 14:00:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

I'm not convinced this is as binary as previous posters have aluded to.

I think that there are pro's and cons with both approaches and the sucess or failure of either delivery method is dependent of the attitude of the participants and the skills of the trainer.  The nature of the information transfer also plays a part.

Much like the days when overhead projectors were critisised for communicating content in a sterile way, things move on and 'the old ways' are not always a panacea.

Good in person presenters with an interactive audience are excellent and virtual courses delivered in the right way can also be excellent.  Conversely a presenter who hasn't mastered their craft can sometimes be worse in person than online.

I do both types of training delivery depending on the content and the delegates and change my techniques accordingly.  It is generally accepted that I am the boring safety guy either way ;)

thanks 1 user thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
Acorns on 24/04/2025(UTC)
peter gotch  
#5 Posted : 23 April 2025 14:25:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Thanks Holliday42333

I agree that online training courses have their place.

However, the question asked was how long can someone stay awake on such a course?

So, yes an online course lasting a couple of hours may work, perhaps even 3-4 hours (with breaks).

However, I struggle to encvisage how a full day course could be broken up to maintain delegate concentration e.g. via case studies if most or all of the delegates are in different locations.

This, in effect, leaves a programme (albeit one that isn't even published) which seems likely to be the tutor talking to the audience, which could be very small or very large (no indication of lower or upper limits on numbers), perhaps with the tutor inviting interaction from time to time. 

Such interaction could be the tutor asking the delegates a question. A good tutor will perhaps accept an response that may not align as closely to the tutor's "model answer" as the tutor wishes, but if so, that means having a debate which could very easily knock programme off course.

The interaction could also include inviting the delegates to ask questions of their own. Very often this is likely to mean a delegate's pet concern, which might be something that is of little, if any, relevance to what the other delegates are interested in - so again with risk that the course is knocked off programme.

These are risks that experienced trainers can manage relatively easily in a face to face environment as it is much easier for the tutor to assess how the WHOLE audience is engaging - meaning that the tutor can more easily guillotine debate about niche issues - e.g. by suggesting that tutor and specific delegate can chat more about THAT topic during the lunch break.

If, I see ONE DAY as being problematic for online training, then I obviously  understand why HSSnail won't play when it comes to delivering IOSH MS by such method.

Holliday42333  
#6 Posted : 23 April 2025 14:42:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

I understand what you are trying to say Peter and am in general agreement however I still think this is too binary a viewpoint.

a few months ago I had to re-complete a specific safety passport course (completely pointless for my level, or most of the delegates for that matter, but that is another topic).

The first time around, 5 years previously, the course was a full day in person.  To be fair to them, the presenter was very poor indeed.  Not only unengaging but factually incorrect in a number or areas where they added their own take on a subject, including one issue that was one of the old HSE Myth Busters series.  The whole day was painfull and did more harm to working safely in the field than not doing the course at all.

Roll things forward 5 years and the online, full day, multi-delegate course was excellent (using the same content).  Engaging, interactive and the presenter involved all and picked up, via camera, those delegates that were drifting off or getting distracted.  Yes the content was still pointless for me but the delivery was very good indeed and what I didn't get out of it interms of safety knowledge I picked up in presentation/delivery skills.  A couple of the 'boots on the ground' delegates even admitted that it wasnt as bad as they expected; which is high praise indeed!!

I can honestly say thay the day flew along.

thanks 1 user thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
Kate on 23/04/2025(UTC)
leeoneill  
#7 Posted : 23 April 2025 15:59:35(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
leeoneill

I recently did a two day Laser Safety Officer course through teams and I cannot remember ever being more tired than at the end of both those days.

thanks 1 user thanked leeoneill for this useful post.
peter gotch on 24/04/2025(UTC)
peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 24 April 2025 10:34:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning Lee - the mind boggles. Two DAYS on laser safety by Teams. I really sympathise.

Thanks Holliday

Clearly if someone doesn't know their stuff then perhaps they might be better delivering (probably poorly) if forced to use standardised materials.

I think I can just about imagine an online tutor keeping people's attention for a full day on a Safety Passport course as there would be so many substantially different topics to cover, 

In contrast, if the course is effectively covering a single issue, "Designing with health and safety in mind", with the unsaid subtitle "on construction projects" the tutor would still have to put a Designer's duties under CDM into context and so go through what each of the other CDM duty holders has to do, which means that inevitably a significant proportion of the course programme SHOULD be about setting out the legislative rules AND exceptions - all very dry and perhaps why so many OSH professionals end up being dubbed the "boring Safety Guy" however much you used those words tongue in cheek, 

So, as example, in the content would NEED to be some comment on the role of the Principal Designer, when that PD is NOT required, but also that the PD role will usually extend into the "construction phase", Does the Designer NEED to know that the role of PD might well be transferred from one party to another? May be, may be not and probably varying between attendees.

Can't even see how a tutor could appropriately get over the message to a sufficient standard without going through most of the definitions in Regulation 2 of CDM - for the simple reason that otherwise the design professional won't know when the scope of their duties comes into play - so as example they might not treat some investigation that involves an excavation a couple of years before the building site exists, as being "construction work". 

I can envisage that some trainers MIGHT try to get round this by going through the WHOLE of CDM (and perhaps more) to illustrate to the Designer what construction site workers may face and start waffling on about the need for a worker cutting tiles to wear RPE when the Designer's objective should be to minimise the need for cutting of tiles in the first place.

This was precisely what often happened when CDM was extended in 2007 to include what is Part 4 of the Regulations. So, instead of a one day training CDM training programme that focused on duty holders, an hour or two would be lost to the basics of e.g. supporting excavations and welfare requirements.

.....and if that happened there was less time in the course programme to go through the duties of the front end duty holders, including Designers.

A topic made even more difficult to deliver online as there are so few stories of what has gone wrong due to the failure of CDM front end duty holders and enforcement action (or civil litigation) having been taken against Designers under CDM (and most of those could probably have been contested given the will!).

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