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mike52  
#1 Posted : 22 March 2011 17:31:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mike52

I am not sure if this is a fact or just scare mongering by my company.

At a meeting of the Fire Wardens we were told that due to public service cut backs the fire inspectors are not carying out as many inspections. My employers have said that if an incident happens, such as them finding a locked fire door then it would be the fire warden would get fined for failing their duty, and some local authorities have already starting doing this.

My question is has anyone else heard of this before? and as there are usually several fire wardens in a company how would they know which one to fine? If it is true when did it come into force?

IMO I feel that the company is trying to just put more blame on the fire wardens.

Mike
Merv  
#2 Posted : 22 March 2011 18:06:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Merv

First, I am not sure if any employee can actually be "fined" for not doing their job. is it legal ?

Second, check their written job description. If it contains a phrase relevant to the question : "maintaining evacuation routes ....", and referring to a specific zone or route and they fail in that, then they may be open to disciplinary procedures.

Again, if a manager or supervisor locks or blocks an evacuation route, who gets done ?

Merv
David H  
#3 Posted : 22 March 2011 21:48:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David H

Hi Mike - bit of scare mongering going on here - and i presume that all the Fire wardens are volunteers who can resign whenever they want?
It is a management requirement that someone takes responsibility for the management of the buildings fire precations and checks. There must also be a FRA in place with regular tests and checks?
You cannot be fined unless it is stipulated and agrred in your contract of employment.
Have you a new person on board who is advising?
Check your own training - did it mention specific responsibilities? Is there a way of reporting and recording issues such as locked doors or blocked exits?

The principal duties of the fire warden are to; (Google search)

* take appropriate and effective action if a fire occurs,
* ensure that escape routes are available for use,
* identify hazards in the workplace,
* record and report their observations,

If a fire is discovered, the fire warden should:

* ensure that the alarm has been raised,
* check that manufacturing processes have been made safe,
* evacuate staff from the building or area involved,
* check that any staff or visitors with disabilities are assisted as planned,
* call the reporting centre and give details of the location, severity
and cause of the fire, if known,
* fight the fire if it is safe to do so,

When the evacuation signal is heard, the fire wardens should ensure that everyone leaves the area as quickly and orderly as possible, ensuring that security measures, such as closing fire-resistant safes, are undertaken, if this can be done without causing a significant delay in the evacuation procedure. Electrical equipment should also be turned off and windows shut if possible.

When the area for which the warden is responsible has been evacuated, a rapid, methodical search should be undertaken to ensure that on-one remains in storerooms, toilets and similar areas.

The warden should then go to the assembly point and take part in the roll call procedure there. It may be the fire warden’s or security officer’s tasks to ensure that no-one re-enters before the fire brigade officer gives permission.

All fire wardens have an important role to play in the fire risk assessment. Any changes to work practices or modifications to existing processes may introduce unforeseen problems. Similarly, changes in procedures may result in the introduction of additional sources of ignition or different types of combustible materials. Any hazards that may be perceived should be reported to the fire safety manager who should consider them, in the light of the fire risk assessment, at the earliest opportunity.

Fire and Bomb Drills

Fire drills should be held at least once, and preferably, twice, each year. Following the fire drills the fire safety manager should hold a short debriefing session with the fire wardens in order to learn of any problems or difficulties that were encountered. The problems and any remedial action taken to reduce their occurrence in the future should be recorded. Fire drills are important exercises and provide an opportunity for plans and procedures to be developed and modified if necessary.

In some premises where there is a risk of terrorist action directed towards the premises or to others in the vicinity, it is also valuable to carry out a bomb drill occasionally, with the purpose of reminding staff of the actions that they should take. Again, a record of the exercise should be kept and procedures modified if necessary.

Particular consideration should be given to the actions taken in respect of a device thought to be in the street outside as well as those to be taken if a bomb were to be placed inside the building.

So relax and ask the pertient questions - who says and how can they prove it?

David
Mark Lovibond  
#4 Posted : 22 March 2011 23:51:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mark Lovibond

mike52 wrote:
I am not sure if this is a fact or just scare mongering by my company.

At a meeting of the Fire Wardens we were told that due to public service cut backs the fire inspectors are not carying out as many inspections. My employers have said that if an incident happens, such as them finding a locked fire door then it would be the fire warden would get fined for failing their duty, and some local authorities have already starting doing this.

My question is has anyone else heard of this before? and as there are usually several fire wardens in a company how would they know which one to fine? If it is true when did it come into force?

IMO I feel that the company is trying to just put more blame on the fire wardens.

Mike



Hi Mike,

Who are you referring to when you say "... such as them finding a locked fire door..."? The LAFB or someone from within the organisation?

As I understand it, the LAFB may issue improvement/prohibition notices or prosecute organisations for failing to comply with the RRFSO (depending on the severity of non-compliance) in much the same way as the HSE do with HASAW.

IMO, if prosecuted in court and fines are issued they would be issued against the organisation and not individuals. Sure the CEO/MD and/or the appointed "competent person" would probably be up in court representing the organisation but I very much doubt that a fire warden (unless they are the appointed competent person) would be prosecuted as an individual.

I would try and clarify what your organisation is intending to implement, and if they are suggesting that any fines issued would be retrieved from individuals within the organisation, I would seek employment law advice from your HR department or another employment law advisory source. Sounds really iffy to me.

It may be scaremongering as you suggest but (again IMO) any organisation that needs to use such intimidating tactics....need I say more?

Wardens can check a door one minute and some other person could arrange for it to be locked within the next 10 mins. If a fire door is needed to be locked for security when the building is unoccupied (i.e. overnight) then there must be clear procedures and rigourous monitoring to ensure that it is unlocked when the building is opened up ans that the ability to lock it is withdrawn until the last person leaves at night.
messyshaw  
#5 Posted : 23 March 2011 07:01:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

It is just possible that an enforcing authority could prosecute a fire warden in the case mentioned, but very very unlikely. In any case, the boss cannot devolve his/her responsibilities as easily as that!

Article 5(4)(b) of the RR(FS)O states that anyone with a "building safety role" can be treated as the Responsible Person (RP) as far as their legal duties are concerned. It's the same Article where an incompetent fire alarm engineer was recently prosecuted using 5(4)(a).

HOWEVER, this course of action is highly unlikely and to the best of my knowledge such a prosecution has not occurred against a fire warden. An enforcing authority will have a default position of always prosecuting the RP. I was involved in a case where such action was considered against two managers of a High St chain store (as well as the Company). In the end the legal team were satisfied that the prosecution against the RP would suffice - which indeed turned out to be the case.

I work for a company who constantly struggle to maintain sufficient fire warden volunteers. An atmosphere of positive encouragement has been developed and has boosted numbers (slightly). At one large site, six monthly informal meetings are fairly well attended (assisted by a free buffet!) and a fire warden page/blog on the intranet receives some limited support.

Therefore this negative/aggressive idea of this clumsy approach will backfire as it is inaccurate, demotivating, no way to treat your employees and definitely no way to recruit new wardens.

There's always a balance if you decide to use a 'stick and carrot' approach. This employer has got that balance badly wrong and needs to buy a huge bag of carrots - and quickly - or s/he will find they have insufficient fire wardens PDQ
PhilBeale  
#6 Posted : 23 March 2011 15:28:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PhilBeale

If a fire warden knows that a fire door is locked and does nothing about it then there could be seen that he ahs not carried out his duties as an employee (NOT AS A FIRE WARDEN) all employees are required to report anything they find unsafe "through acts or omissions"

If a fire warden finds something not right then they should report it and thery have done their job. Ultimately it shouldn't be down to one individual to take on the role as everyone is responsible for fire safety in the company. as soon as you receive fire training at work then you should or know the importance to maintain a means of escape.

i only see in a very extreme case that an employee would be found responsible it would always be the RP in the firing line first as they are responsible for fire safety. if that is what the company is threatening or saying then i would see no reason why all the fire wardens shouldn't give up the role and see how the company then plans on complying with the RRFSO.

As said above the company should be creating a positive attitude towards it's fire wardens (and first aiders) as the company can not operate without them. i think the company has got some duff information from somewhere and they need putting right on it.

Phil
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