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A Kurdziel  
#1 Posted : 15 April 2011 12:26:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I have noticed that a number of posters on this site keep asking for case law, which is then used as evidence ( a driver) for adopting a particular policy at their place of work.
I have to ask the question why?
The point of the H&S professional is to predict what might happen if things go wrong. They should use their knowledge and experience to produce policies that reduce the risk to their employees. Whether there is case law is not really relevant and it is based on a mistaken assumption that if there is no case law then there is no legal reason for following a particular course of action. In fact the opposite is true, if you fail in the general duty of care identified in both common law and statute you can end up providing the case law!
So why the obsession with case law?
m  
#2 Posted : 15 April 2011 12:35:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

Case law sometimes needs to be used to support an argument for a change to be implemented. On it's own it won't be enough because we would be bogged down with work. As just one of the 'reasons' to make a change it has its merits.

Case law is often requested by those doing practice questions for the diploma and writing up assignments.
RayRapp  
#3 Posted : 16 April 2011 09:29:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Case law provides a historical interest, as m states, especially for those studying. Case law does not have quite the same prominence as it once did because there are far more statute laws and judges tend not to be held to previous case law, but make decisions based on the facts of the case. That said, case law still can provide some guidance where there may not be a statute law covering the subject, where there is some element of doubt and where a potential civil law claim may be avoided.

Case law should not be dismissed as being irrelevant, it is a part of the bigger picture. Knowledge of the law and its machinations can be a great persuader in times of need.
djupnorth  
#4 Posted : 18 April 2011 08:22:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
djupnorth

I agree with Ray. I would also add that where the case is recent, it will state the law as it currently is (the court often interpreting statutory provisions). For that reason is is important.

Regards.

DJ
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 18 April 2011 10:36:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I agree that case law is of historical interest and very important for people who want to understand how H&S works, in general terms, but what I am surprised by is the occasions when posters ask for quite specific case law on very specific issues. I get the impression that they are trying to produce a policy and using specific case law as a driver for that specific policy, for example there was a posting about mobile phones recently and the poster wanted evidence of a case law that illustrated that situation. One gets the impression that the H&S professionals and managers are purely driven by a desire to comply only with the law and nothing else. So where does case law and law generally stand as a driver in H&S policies compared to the other parts of the MEL mnemonic, namely Moral and Economic?
Remember case law is not by its nature complete, it does not and cannot include every eventuality. Surely H&S professionals should be looking at more general principles and selling these to their management rather than just saying “Well if we do this then this case law will apply”?

MB1  
#6 Posted : 18 April 2011 10:38:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

The case law may be a useful too in exerting a sway in gaining senior management approval in changing/initiating policies etc.

You have the facts to pass on to them regarding the likelihood and end result should they defer or delay!

I also use the information from press statements regarding prosecutions etc to give that added incentive!
David Bannister  
#7 Posted : 18 April 2011 10:53:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

AK, perhaps some H&S professionals have the moral & economic arguments well rehearsed but need a bit of help with part of the legal side.
Sometimes a manager or employee needs convincing that someone real has fallen foul of the law and what the consequences were before they accept change.
BuzzLightyear  
#8 Posted : 18 April 2011 13:57:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

A Kurdziel wrote:
I have noticed that a number of posters on this site keep asking for case law, which is then used as evidence ( a driver) for adopting a particular policy at their place of work.
I have to ask the question why?
The point of the H&S professional is to predict what might happen if things go wrong. They should use their knowledge and experience to produce policies that reduce the risk to their employees. Whether there is case law is not really relevant and it is based on a mistaken assumption that if there is no case law then there is no legal reason for following a particular course of action. In fact the opposite is true, if you fail in the general duty of care identified in both common law and statute you can end up providing the case law!
So why the obsession with case law?

I think this is a really good question and in an ideal world, case law would not be necessary. Personally, I like to see it as a 'hearts and minds' thing. While there may be numorous reasons to devise and implement policy on a H&S issue, I find that legal, moral and financial arguments alone are not always enough - they just influence the 'mind'. Where as case law can sometimes get more to the heart - telling sad stories about the victims of accidents or worrying stories about the convicted - depending on who in the organisation you are talking to! They can also throw in a bit of reality - bringing home that what I am recommending is not hypothetical but something that has actually happened.
MB1  
#9 Posted : 18 April 2011 15:04:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

Hi Buzz,

Do you think the 'hearts & minds' approach is generally seen to work at a large corporate level?

A recent safety bonus to board members story comes to mind straight away!
BuzzLightyear  
#10 Posted : 18 April 2011 15:10:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
BuzzLightyear

MB1 wrote:
Hi Buzz,

Do you think the 'hearts & minds' approach is generally seen to work at a large corporate level?

A recent safety bonus to board members story comes to mind straight away!


Yes, I think it can help on a large corporate level. Well it has to some extent where I work anyway which employs several thousand people. Sorry, what recent board members story are you referring to?
MB1  
#11 Posted : 18 April 2011 15:44:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

Buzz,

A year following the drastic disaster in the gulf of Mexico where 11 people died, the board decided to have a bonus as it was deemed it had a good safety year for their worldwide operations.... After the press releases and likely some embarrassment ensued to donate it to a fund.

I do agree though 'hearts & mind' approach has it's merits but at local levels of management and worker involvement. I was involved in this kind of local safety behavioral incentive with local labour abroad and was very successful too.

I'm sometimes sceptical regarding starting at the top due to some large corporate systems, sometimes it is a long distance to travel to the bottom (or to reach upwards where case law and the ramifications are sometimes felt more in the financial sense)
tabs  
#12 Posted : 18 April 2011 16:29:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tabs

A Kurdziel wrote:
I have noticed that a number of posters on this site keep asking for case law, which is then used as evidence ( a driver) for adopting a particular policy at their place of work.
I have to ask the question why?
The point of the H&S professional is to predict what might happen if things go wrong. They should use their knowledge and experience to produce policies that reduce the risk to their employees. Whether there is case law is not really relevant and it is based on a mistaken assumption that if there is no case law then there is no legal reason for following a particular course of action. In fact the opposite is true, if you fail in the general duty of care identified in both common law and statute you can end up providing the case law!
So why the obsession with case law?


Firstly, I don't think it comes even close to an "obsession" but you answer your own question - "The point of the H&S professional is to predict what might happen if things go wrong." - case law shows us (and the general public) what happens when things go wrong in the legal sense. If you like, the law is the threat and the outcome in case law is the evidence of punishment.

Some case law commonly used also clarifies an issue for the first time.

The prevelance of absence can also point to the importance of the issue to those underwriting your actions. How else other than through prosecution do we learn from other people's mistakes?

I see my job as helping my employer look after their employees - but also to look after the company's compliance risks. Search for prosecutions under HSAW74 s2 and then for DSE regs and you will see what the enforcement bias is towards.
boblewis  
#13 Posted : 18 April 2011 21:01:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Part of the role of a CHSP is to provide guidance to management on the potential legal situation that may be faced by the company. To do this one must understand how courts of first impression provide interpretation of the law in particular situations. The A66 case showed how even in criminal cases the prosecution may be taken to a court of first impression to gain an accurate interpretation of a point of law. In this case the use of Risk assesment v the requirements of part 21 MHSWR 1999. HSE were not happy at the outcome.

Case Law is the bedrock on which safety professionals develop advice on legal issues

amorris  
#14 Posted : 19 April 2011 13:26:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
amorris

Case law is important because it clarifies points of law - for example, the definition of reasonably practicable originally comes from case law. It helps us muguls interpret what the legal eagles and the government meant when they wrote the legislation. And interpret it in relation to todays workplaces, not those of yesteryear.

Our legislation is very opinion based and has lots of grey areas - case law provides a definitive answer which applies in general to all other workplace. It effectively becomes part of the legislation. If you don't know the relevant case law, you may not understand exactly what the law means and where it comes from (so you can't be sure it applies to you).
A Kurdziel  
#15 Posted : 19 April 2011 15:13:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I think this has gone off track- or perhaps I didn’t explain myself. I am not saying case law is not important in the legal context ‘Stare decisis’ and all of that. Nor is the fact that H&S professionals need to be able to understand where our law comes from BUT rather I am surprised by the number times that someone on the site says or seems to say, “I am proposing such and such a policy and although this is based on my judgement as H&S professional, my management will not adopt it unless I can provide case law showing that if we do not adopt this policy we will end up losing in court”.
I do use case law to illustrate points etc but I don’t expect to be able to find specific cases to support the policies that I am putting forward.
I hope instead that my professions opinion as to the best way to manage a risk is enough.
Perhaps I am naive or something?
MB1  
#16 Posted : 19 April 2011 15:22:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

Not naive in that sense, just that there are some senior directors who base their decisions on facts to back up professional opinions!
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