Rank: Super forum user 
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My sister, who works in a nursery for disabled children, has just asked me for advice on the following.
There is a kitchen for use by the staff and parents, the children do not have access. One of the trustees has appointed a H&S person, I am unsure of her qualifications at the moment, but she has come from "industry".
One of the things that she wants to put into place for the parents, and any carer that is with a child, a set of instructions on how to boil a kettle and make a hot drink. She is concerned that a parent or carer may burn themselves and sue the nursery.
I am at a loss as to what advice I should give.
Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Mmm...not sure where to start with this one. I do dislike these pandering types, but I suppose if the new h&s person wishes to do this task then let them get on with it. Personally, I would like to think that they have more important matters to deal with in order to justify their position.
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Rank: Forum user
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It's that fear of litigation again...As opposed to being common sensical and constructive. The level of H&S in this location must be wonderful if all they can focus on is the kettle. Yes, yes, I know I am being a bit of cynic.
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Rank: Forum user
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Prior to giving instructions on how to boil the kettle, perhaps she should start with, how to get dressed in the morning or the safe way to open the nursery door.
Is this a Friday thing!!!!!!
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Rank: Super forum user
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xRockape wrote:Prior to giving instructions on how to boil the kettle, perhaps she should start with, how to get dressed in the morning or the safe way to open the nursery door.
Is this a Friday thing!!!!!! This is an actual situation! There was something else mentioned regarding fire procedures as well, I am not quite sure of these details, but I will post when I get them.
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Rank: Super forum user
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On a positive note, it is good that the trustee has appointed somebody to carry out a review.
As for the kettle, is it a domestic type kettle like you would have in your home or is it a commercial water boiler / fixed appliance? If the latter then I could understand the need to issue instructions due to lack of user familiarity.
Hopefully the H&S person is reviewing the meatier H&S topics and not just the simple quick hits like the kettle.
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Rank: Forum user
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Surely this is one of those trivial risks, that we are all told need not be risk assessed? i.e. most if not all of us have a kettle at home and are entirely au fait on how to use it safely without a written S.O.P.
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Rank: Super forum user
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quote=stevie40]On a positive note, it is good that the trustee has appointed somebody to carry out a review.
As for the kettle, is it a domestic type kettle like you would have in your home or is it a commercial water boiler / fixed appliance? If the latter then I could understand the need to issue instructions due to lack of user familiarity.
Hopefully the H&S person is reviewing the meatier H&S topics and not just the simple quick hits like the kettle.
I totally agree that its a good thing that the trustees have had the foresight to consider H&S. This is a domestic kettle. One more thing that has come to light. They are seeking to have all visitors sign a disclaimer that if they burn themselves whilst making a drink, it will not be the fault of the nursery.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I think you may find that a disclaimer will be a waste of paper as any person has a right under civil law to pursue claims regardless of disclaimers.
How would this affect areas such as faulty equipment etc?
Perhaps this is more of an insurance liability driven exercise that will only be defensible by doing what you reasonably practically can do to prevent harm?
Surely parents & carers are already aware of the risks posed to vunerable children regarding use of kettles etc?
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Rank: Super forum user
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MB1 wrote:
Perhaps this is more of an insurance liability driven exercise that will only be defensible by doing what you reasonably practically can do to prevent harm?
Nothing to do with insurance - we know better than most that an attempt to contract out of liability for injury or death is a pointless exercise and would never stand up in court. It simply cannot be done. Does make you question their competence though doesn't it.
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Rank: Super forum user
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A disclaimer show a sense of desperation, not to mention a lack of understanding of h&s issues. Most disclaimers are not worth the paper they are written on, so another waste of time.
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Rank: Guest
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stevie40 wrote:
Does make you question their competence though doesn't it.
Yes
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Rank: Guest
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Suggest printing off this thread and posting it on the notice board.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Surely the most likely injury would be a scald not a burn?
Unless there are some very special/unusual hazards or people at risk in this scenario then the proposed action is completely out of place, mostly because it would serve no useful purpose in further controlling the identified hazards.
If indeed the nursery considers the provision of a formal written procedure a necessary part of their risk controls then perhaps they will also consider the need to ensure that the procedure is known, understood and followed? And then to keep a record, signed by all users. Then to consider checking that all potential users can read and understand English and if not then to provide the notice in relevant languages or even give verbal instruction. Are there any users that would require supervision whilst carrying out the task etc etc
On the other hand they could simply accept that it is an everyday task for most people and the odds of a successful claim are probably far greater than winning the lottery 3 times on the trot provided that all the normally expected controls are in place. (kit checks, safe electrics etc)
Off to make a cup of tea but just checked and my training is out of date! Anyone want to make one for me :-)
P48
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I have to agree with the majority of posts in the thread. This is an everyday task that I suggest needs no further intervention, instruction etc. I think Ray sums it up nicely at #11. Ignorance and desperation seem to be the main 'drivers' here. I suggest that they concentrate on the 'real' risks.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Given the day of the week you would think its a Friday fun post. I wish it was, I really do.
I will be speaking to my sister later today, as there may be more to come. I dread to think what.
When I hear things like this I don't if I should laugh or cry.
Andy
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Happy Friday
My sister works for a Nursery and I have heard the same issues. They are not allowed to drink tea incase they spill it on a child and kill them... or something like that.
However when I questioned on her on First aid I was alarmed to find out they all do a one day appointed person course and none specialise in pediatric first aid! Why? COST!!!!
So I agree with Ray 110%
I like this idea of delegating tea making, I want mine served at 40 deg C tho... Better safe than scalded.
Home time in 20 mins!!!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Round two!!
For "H&S" reasons the staff have also been shown how to use the microwave and portable cd player. On/off buttons, how to remove plugs from the socket etc...
Signed records will be kept on their HR file.
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Rank: Forum user
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Is it Friday already? My, that was a quick week...
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Rank: Super forum user
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Gerry D wrote:Is it Friday already? My, that was a quick week... I thought about leaving it until Friday. Hope it puts a wry smile on peoples faces on a Monday morning.
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Rank: New forum user
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I am genuinely gobsmacked that this is the most important issue.
If I remember rightly I am sure there was an article recently talking about how some carers had accidently poisoned the people they were looking after because they accidently used dish washer detergent when they thought they were using orange squash (the bottles looked similar) when they had taken them for a day out. Resulted in long and painful death.
Am I on another planet to think that something like this should be on the agenda above tea making? Maybe we should get everyone to wear those heat resistant gloves whilst making the tea? OK rant over...
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Rank: Super forum user
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What we need to look at here is 'competence' as a person with competence in one area may not be competent in an other area as nurseries etc are very different to 'industry' with different mental ideas and whilst it sounds stupid boiling water on a baby/young child is serious and yep I have come across people that should know different taking very hot drinks into an area where young toddlers are playing - a practice that whilst not OK is undertaken in the private home but is not acceptable in a nursery
I would have a chat with the H&S person to confirm their competence noting that all they may be looking to do is raise standards etc
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Rank: Super forum user
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I understand there are certain areas to consider to safeguard children, although to go as far as banning hot drinks instead of more practical safeguards would benefit both adults (hot drink users) and children alike. If they are educated at that age what is right & wrong (harmful) they will benefit.
And as adults to remind them of their responsibilities regarding dangers to children or vunerable adults even rather than removing elements that are seen and used in the home and at work/play etc instead of removing the stimulus of everyday items that may become even more curious when they actually come into closer proximity in the future? All part of a educating standpoint to avoid risk aversion and move straight to risk awareness and control without removing it from sight?
The term wrapping in cotton wool comes to mind?
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Lets not get too snooty about all this.
The Nursery manager is obviously trying to react to his/her perception of the nasty world around him/her.
If that perception is based on the world according to the Daily Mail then you can see where this is coming from.
All that is needed is a gentle push back into the real world & real risks such as the "orange Squash poisioning".
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Rank: Forum user
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MB1 wrote:The term wrapping in cotton wool comes to mind? Can't do that - Some may be allerigc, or choke on the fluff........ I completely agree. It is this kind of over zealous approach that gives the press their ammuntion....
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Rank: Forum user
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Why not get your sister to suggest that they ask your LA for advice. Hopefully this would point them in the right direction.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Some Local Authority advice on the web for nurseries has identified hot water/surfaces as a significant risk, but not explicitly banning making of tea etc. http://www.chesterfield....x?CATID=259&CID=2682This one does not! http://www.walsall.gov.uk/day_nurseries.pdfThis one is reasonable! http://www.kirkhill.high...ealth%20and%20Safety.htmExtract;- Food Preparation Adults should not walk about with hot drinks or place hot drinks within reach of children. Kettles should be used with great care and supervised at all times. Refer to Highland Council Health and Safety Manual Food Safety for further information relating to food preparation. Refer to nursery snack policy for further food health and safety information.
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Rank: Super forum user
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xRockape wrote:Why not get your sister to suggest that they ask your LA for advice. Hopefully this would point them in the right direction. @Rockape - I assume that was aimed at me? I have indeed tried to point them in the right direction, I didn't make my point well as it was Friday, but I felt the issue was the manager just wanted to ban use of the kitchen and tea drinking as it was easier than controlling the risk. Trouble is this resulted in lots of bad feelings, demotivation and stressed workers. As pointed out by Jay sensible risk measures can be applied, simply and easily.
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xRockape wrote:Why not get your sister to suggest that they ask your LA for advice. Hopefully this would point them in the right direction.
@Rockape - I assume that was aimed at me?
I have indeed tried to point them in the right direction, I didn't make my point well as it was Friday, but I felt the issue was the manager just wanted to ban use of the kitchen and tea drinking as it was easier than controlling the risk.
Trouble is this resulted in lots of bad feelings, demotivation and stressed workers.
As pointed out by Jay sensible risk measures can be applied, simply and easily
Sorry if I affended, as it certainly wasent ment as a snipe at you or anyone else. Just trying to help!!
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Rank: Super forum user
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This Manager of the nursery does not agree with most of what is happening.
Because the nursery is mostly charity funded they have to go along with what the trustees say, and it is they who have appointed the H&S person.
There have been controls in place for a number of years; children not having access to the kitchen, no hot drinks to be taken out of the kitchen area. Most of the kids couldn't get to the kitchen under their own steam anyway, but for the few that can there are controls. There has never been an incident where a child, teacher, carer or parent has been scalded with hot liquid.
I am not saying that this could never happen, but with adults using domestic equipment and there being measures to keep the children away, there is little risk. IMO
One good thing that has happened is that they are all receiving manual handling training!!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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If the manager of the nursery believes they are receiving bad advice then they should reject that advice and maybe reject the adviser. If the manager is content then who are we to argue?
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Rank: Super forum user
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stuff4blokes wrote:If the manager of the nursery believes they are receiving bad advice then they should reject that advice and maybe reject the adviser. If the manager is content then who are we to argue? Rock and a hard place for the Manager I think S4B.
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Rank: Super forum user
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xRockape wrote:
Sorry if I affended, as it certainly wasent ment as a snipe at you or anyone else. Just trying to help!!
Didn't mean it to read like that :) was just asking if it was me it was aimed at, or someone else :)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Is this H&S person on the fabled register that has eliminated poor H&S advice.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Motorhead wrote:stuff4blokes wrote:]
Rock and a hard place for the Manager I think S4B. Sounds like all management to me!!!
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