guru this is a very good question and one that has been discussed here many times. There are many differing theories, and that is what they are, as there is no predefined competence requirement or test for fire risk assessors. If I was third party accredited I would probably recommend that as a standard, whether IFE, Warrington Fire or other, but I am not, so I will not recommend that level. There are training courses that start with one day introduction into fire safety with a written test followed by a further course of two or three days with exam, followed by assignment. CIEH and IFE do that and that is a level I would recommend for someone new to fire safety. That will allow competence for fire risk assessment of low risk premises and once experience gained then more complex fra's can be carried out. As for myself, I consider myself competent following many years fire brigade some as fire prevention officer/inspector and training at fire service college. 20 years out of the brigade in H&S and carrying out fra's during those 20 years in accordance with the ever changing regulations. I know my limits and choose the right premises for my level. There will be those who contribute and say ex firemen are not necessarily competent fire risk assessors and I will agree with that, some fire risk assessors will say that H&S people are not competent to carry out fra's, partly correct as some H&S people are not competent in that area. This has probably not helped but I will be interested in other peoples views.

messey, although I agree with you I also disagree ?????? How do you ensure a suitable and sufficient fra with having a competent person carry it out?

Chris - I totally understand where you are coming from. I am simply referring to the RRO as to the regulatory requirements contained in the various Article within the regs that have produced this anomaly. My understanding is that when written, it was decided to allow RP's of small and medium size enterprises (SMEs) to complete their own FRAs by downloading and referring to the range of DCLG guidance notes published. As a result, there is no requirement for competent person to be used when completing a FRA. It's not as mad as it sounds. If a competent person was required for every FRA, every one of the tens of thousands of businesses in England & Wales (even the 1 man bands) would have to employ an assessor regardless of risk and regardless whether the FRA needs to be recorded. This would be clearly a huge burden on SMEs - something the Govt of the day was trying to avoid. In addition, a small newspaper shop or a company operating an office from a portacabin may well have a very low risk which a RP maybe able to reasonably assess without the need of an expensive assessor. Of course, when a RP is hiring in a professional to do the task for him, it makes to have a registration scheme or some other standard to help the consumer avoid the cowboys. However, proving competence in that manner is a 'nice to have' and not a 'need to have'.

I have evaluated Fire RA's undertaken by highly 'qualified' x-fire officers which are very poor to say the least and vice versa [some are very very good and suitable & sufficient] additionally I have evaluated RA's undertaken by people with no 'qualifications' at all which are very good and again v-versa! The point being is that competence is in the eye of the beholder and many of the 'clubs' that are being created for this area are [in my personal opionion] missing the point and onlying allowing into their clubs thses who are the same as them which does not always = competence Use logic and common sense [if there is such a thing] and go from there e.g. undertake an evaluate of anybody who is undertaking any form of RA for U [e.g. their experience, attitude, personal traits, competence re fire and associated areas] noting that an x fire person who was H&S as well is different to a person who simply [the use of 'simply' as a word is taking nothing away from somebody!] attended the tender for all their career; to give U piece of mind and if your evaluation brings doubt move on from that point As for the burden on SME's; in my view thats another red herring considering the tax and other burdens that are not life important that are in place and growing every day

This piece of legislation may shed some light on this thread...... "The Fire Safety (Employees’ Capabilities) (England) Regulations 2010 came into force on 06th April 2010 and require that every employer must, in entrusting tasks to employees, take into account their capabilities as regards health and safety, so far as those capabilities relate to fire. Thus, competence must be provided and demonstrated for those with specific fire safety responsibilities". I'm not sure whether the current draft document is going to supercede/amend this requirement, but at least there is a simple statement that states competence must be demonstrated. As with the original post - I'm still not sure how to do this in practice!!!! Pete