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MarcusB  
#1 Posted : 01 September 2011 16:47:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MarcusB

http://www.bbc.co.uk/new...gland-berkshire-14744947 One day, I'll learn to ignore these articles... Have any of you visited this tower? I was just wondering how the handrail is too high for an 11-year-old.
RP  
#2 Posted : 01 September 2011 17:50:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RP

It would be interesting to know how many under 11's have fallen to determine if there is a significant risk :) or not...
andybz  
#3 Posted : 01 September 2011 18:00:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

The tower has only just reopened. I guess it is fair to say the H&S assessment was aimed at preventing any fall. But children should be able to climb the tower and this should have been considered before the renovation work. That would have given a much better chance of implementing a solution. The fact the issue was only raised afterwards suggests such an assessment did not happen.
MaxPayne  
#4 Posted : 01 September 2011 18:34:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MaxPayne

How was it assessed that an 11 year old would be "at risk" but it's presumably okay for an elderly person who may have reduced mobility, arthritis, etc to climb the tower?
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 01 September 2011 22:27:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Small adults? Tall 11 year olds? Do they have a figure on a board stating "you have to be taller than me to climb this tower"?
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 01 September 2011 22:29:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

It's almost Friday so here goes - can I get to the top on my mobility scooter?
Invictus  
#7 Posted : 02 September 2011 07:08:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

RP wrote:
It would be interesting to know how many under 11's have fallen to determine if there is a significant risk :) or not...
Thought the idea was to be proactive rather than reactive. Do we always have to wait until something happens before we do something about it.
mikecarr  
#8 Posted : 02 September 2011 08:40:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mikecarr

Fair enough I think.....what's the difference betwen that and Ikea not letting childern under 3 go into the children's play area?
MarcusB  
#9 Posted : 02 September 2011 08:46:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
MarcusB

I see quite a few of you think the same way about this as I do. It would have made a lot more sense for them to consider this before the renovation than after. I can't quite picture a handrail that would be too high for a ten-year-old to use. And, as Max and Chris have pointed out, what about tall children or short adults?
Stedman  
#10 Posted : 02 September 2011 08:49:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stedman

We have a simple rule in our 14th Century church tower (which is not open to the public). Young children must go down the tower steps immediately behind an adult (preferably a parent). The idea is that if the child falls, it only falls a short distance and against something which is less hard than the steps. If the steps in Windsor Castle are anything like the ones in our church tower, which are steep and very narrow (especially on the inside of the radius), then it makes absolute sense to take young children out of the equation especially when dealing with the public in larger numbers. At the weekend I also saw the Qutub Minar tower in Delhi which had been closed to visitors since the 1970 as a result of two incidents of fatalities on the steps, so IMHO the Windsor Castle story is not one of Health and Safety going mad.
SimonL  
#11 Posted : 02 September 2011 14:16:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SimonL

How can anyone have a view on whether this is reasonable or fair enough without a single fact to go on? The OP simply posted the 'story' and asked if anyone has seen the handrail. We haven't seen the RA or know any of the background. Comparisons with other towers aren't particularly relevant either, we could all find one that is worse or better - Qutub is far taller than Windsor and has a tiny diameter and oddly enough there is no handy ready reckoner to compare the strairs with. It is Friday and it's been a long week.
Stedman  
#12 Posted : 02 September 2011 16:28:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stedman

Castle steps were designed to be defended from the top down hence why they are steep and wind up anti-clockwise. When these were built they were not built under the current building regulations and are completely different from flights of stairs (with landings) which we find in modern buildings. I have not seen the risk assessments or the steps concerned, however based upon my own construction design knowledge I fully support this trial H&S management arrangement. Surely it is better to have the tower open with some restrictions than completely closed!
Betta Spenden  
#13 Posted : 02 September 2011 18:10:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Betta Spenden

It would make an interesting case-law study. Regina v Regina, for an incident that took place on crown property.
Graham Bullough  
#14 Posted : 02 September 2011 18:27:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Oh dear, Henry II and his builders showed a massive lack of foresight in the 1170s in not envisaging that centuries later hordes of tourists would be wanting to go up the tower!! On a more serious note, there's been some sensible comments already. The BBC Berkshire News report overplays the ban and is out of context with the fact that there are numerous other castles and other premises in the UK with steep, narrow, uneven staircases used by the public. From experience of some of these premises, it's often the case that signs are displayed regarding the nature of such stairways. e.g. not suitable for young children, so that visitors with children or health problems can make appropriate decisions. Also, it's not the ascending so much as the descending which is the hazardous aspect of using such stairways. Therefore, the advice about having younger children closely following their parents when descending is sensible. The potential hazard is likely to be increased when people have to pass each other on stairs, especially spiral ones, which have few or no suitable landings and recesses to allow easier/safer passing. As for handrails, it might be feasible and sensible to have two rails i.e. add a new one at a lower height for use by moderately agile children under 11 years of age and also adults of shorter than average height. In contrast to the reported blanket ban such a measure would be an enabling measure within the spirit of OS&H. Do forum users know of similar stairways elsewhere which have two rails? It's tempting to speculate how the Windsor Castle people enforce the alleged ban: They might possibly have a person on duty outside the entrance to the stairway involved to grill children aspiring to ascend. "What's your age?...Are you sure you've had your 11th birthday?....Now, without hesitation, what's your date of birth? etc, etc. If some sort of restriction is appropriate, a more sensible method would be to use a minimum height comparison board (as mentioned in earlier responses) like the ones with cartoon figures on them which are commonly used at certain types of rides at fairgrounds and amusement parks. This method is also likely to be more acceptable to most members of the public than specifying an age limit.
Graham Bullough  
#15 Posted : 02 September 2011 19:09:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Forgot to ask in my posting above what sort of advice should be given to users of the stairways, e.g. not texting, not carrying hot drinks, especially unlidded ones, check shoe laces properly tied, etc !!!! Oops, sorry, wrong thread about stairways. Blame Friday. Anyway, have a good weekend.
messyshaw  
#16 Posted : 02 September 2011 20:13:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

Graham I would argue that the medieval H&S stair poster should mention: > Care when carrying arrows or crossbows on stairs, > Slip hazards associated with boiling oil running down stairs > Safe systems to be adopted when pillaging > And the benefits of earthing of armour, especially in a storm I am sure there are more..............
Betta Spenden  
#17 Posted : 02 September 2011 21:01:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Betta Spenden

messyshaw wrote:
Graham I would argue that the medieval H&S stair poster should mention: > Care when carrying arrows or crossbows on stairs, > Slip hazards associated with boiling oil running down stairs > Safe systems to be adopted when pillaging > And the benefits of earthing of armour, especially in a storm I am sure there are more..............
Yep. You missed out: 1. Hot PtW when boiling the hot oil/tar. 2. COSHH when throwing dead festering animals and dung over the castle walls during battles.
mgadd  
#18 Posted : 02 September 2011 21:33:52(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mgadd

Its friday so being very quick ..... Why not a height restrication rather that a 11 year old ? Have people not noticed that children are taller now ? You may get a small child but at the age of 14! But his he ok cause hes old enough ?
mgadd  
#19 Posted : 02 September 2011 21:36:44(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mgadd

sorry only read the discussen topic and dived straight in !
Graham Bullough  
#20 Posted : 05 September 2011 08:08:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Here's another suggestion for the medieval H&S spiral staircase poster: If defending against attackers coming up the stairs, be vigilant for left-handed attackers, assuming the stairs are conventional ones which ascend clockwise. Also, on a more general note, beware of being distracted by seductive nubile maidens - or did that hazard only occur in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"?!!
Moderator 3  
#21 Posted : 05 September 2011 13:46:56(UTC)
Rank: Moderator
Moderator 3

As the topic has wandered from the original point somewhat, I'm afraid we must now lock it under FR 1. Regards Moderator 3
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