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mesixfoot  
#1 Posted : 25 October 2011 14:06:55(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mesixfoot

I am working with a Watersports Training centre in Essex that delivers Powerboat and PWC (jet ski) instruction.
Part of the PWC course requires the individual to enter the water to practice a capsize drill.
Exposure should last no longer than 5 minutes and would be the last drill due to the cold.
At what point/time of year/temperature would they have to stop training due to the risk of immersion shock and hypothermia.
Can anyone guide me on this?
The venue is on the Thames estuary and tidal.
Delegates are urged to wear dry suits and neoprene hoods gloves for protection

Tony
Clairel  
#2 Posted : 25 October 2011 14:31:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

I very much doubt you'll find a definitive on this. I'll give you my thoughts.

There will not be set time of year as weather is not that predictable and water temp has many variables.

You might only wear a dry suit in the colder months though though or you'd get very hot. You'd want that more for protecting you from the spray when using the ski/boat than anything. In water a wet suit is fine as long as you're moving about. Neoprene hood might be OTT. I never wear one of them for watersports.

Immersion shock can happen at any time of year really as it's the change in temperature that is the problem. On a hot day cold water can be a problem due to the shock to the system.

Hypothermia is unlikely to develop in 5 mins in our water IMO. Need to make sure thay warm up as soon as they get out.

Try British Waterski for a better answer. They've helped me in the past. Similar issues I suspsect.
jfenney  
#3 Posted : 25 October 2011 14:43:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jfenney

As a watersports senior instructor I agree with Clairel you will never get a definitive answer and shock can happen at any time.

Like all good risk management planning your advising on the necessary equipment and a good brief on what to expect and ensuring that the drill is at the end of the day which is what I normally do.

I suggest the right time is really down to the competance of the instructor about his or hers location and the weather pattens, the basic risk assessment. For example dont do the drill when the tides going out.

Jurgen
DaveDowan  
#4 Posted : 25 October 2011 14:44:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaveDowan

Try this it may help

http://www.leoblockley.o...ia-for-coaches-clubs.pdf


Regards Dave
alan w houghton  
#5 Posted : 25 October 2011 14:51:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
alan w houghton


I thought the jet ski test involving the capsize drill had been stopped.

I have a jet ski and if I was asked to purposely role my ski I would refuse.

I know in north wales they have stopped this practise

Graham Bullough  
#6 Posted : 25 October 2011 15:20:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Though I'm no expert on the subject matter ('out of my depth' is probably a more apt phrase for this topic) I think Clairel makes very valid points, e.g. about the relative contrast between air temperature and water temperature at whatever time and season, etc. the immersion will occur.

Forum users who saw the final episode of the TV series "71 Degrees North" broadcast during Autumn 2010 will recall the finalists swimming below thick ice covering a lake and between large holes cut in the ice. They each wore a dry suit and could be rapidly pulled out of the water by means of a rope, and were monitored by at least one experienced diver who was in the water during the session. Also, viewers were told that the contestants had been medically checked before the session. They were assessed for hypothermia each time they came up for air (by being asked a series of questions which seemed to significantly prolong their duration in the water and associated loss of heat) and were probably monitored afterwards as well. Viewers weren't told what arrangements were made regarding the safety of the accompanying diver/s, but there's a good chance that some were made to avoid any problems which might come to the attention of the media and reap bad publicity.

Okay the above measures seemed appropriate for the Norwegian lake scenario, but would be over the top (OTT) for the Thames river and estuary, and similar waters in the UK. Appropriate measures probably include some sort of pre-activity health questionnaire, and perhaps medical check as well, for participants. No doubt they'll be wearing lifejackets/buoyancy aids, and the organisers should have suitable rescue procedures. Also, bearing in mind the concentrations of sewage liable to be encountered in the water, consideration should be given to the risk of contracting infections through inevitable accidental ingestion of contaminated water. For example, David Walliams suffered bad stomach infections during and after his recent epic fund-raising swim down the Thames. As part of being made aware of the infection risk, participants should know when and where to seek appropriate medical advice if they think they have contracted an infection.

townshend1012  
#7 Posted : 25 October 2011 21:59:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
townshend1012

Given that the water temperature at Greenwich today is 15°C, a capsize drill should not be a problem for a relatively healthy person with a good BMI. The body dissipates heat 26 times faster in water than in air, but even at 15°C / 59°F, you could be in a sticky situation in as little as 15 minutes, depending on your workrate. You are more likely to succumb to exhaustion before your body temperature becomes too low. Once this point is reached, however, core temperature rapidly decreases leading to unconciousness. It is possible to survive more than two hours with a suitable flotation device or dry suit at 15°C. The seas around the UK are at their warmest about now (Sept,Oct) and their coldest in April, May. I would say that, as it's only going to be a quick dunking, it should be quite safe to carry it out till Christmas. (Think about all those idiots who go for a New Year's Day swim! The sea is generally warmer than the air at that time of year.) http://www.metoffice.gov...her/marine/observations/
bob youel  
#8 Posted : 26 October 2011 07:42:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Congratulations; as to the answers given herein - this shows just how good the quality of this site can be


If it is foreseeable that a capsize can happen then some quality training should be given with regards to capsize so as people would know what to do if such an event happened noting that is the person we are concerned about and not the kit! And if the training was a desk top exercise only I would say that the training is not suitable and sufficient

More and more I note that the 'what to do in an emergency' aspects of many such areas are being dropped or at best being undertaken as a desk top exercise only which is a dangerous thing to do for the trainer
Graham Bullough  
#9 Posted : 27 October 2011 00:07:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Surfers and their organisations/groups are likely to be good sources of practical advice about immersion and cold temperatures bearing in mind that many of them do it (surfing) all year. The same could be true of canoeists. During 'freshers' week' when I started at college, I saw an advert for a free introductory session with the canoe club and decided to give it a try. The session at a sizeable swimming pool concentrated on capsize practice with experienced members supervising and assisting prospective newcomers. We soon became adept at bending double and then pushing backwards while both submerged and upside down in order to make a smooth and safe exit from our canoes. We progressed to how to deal with a capsize in a canoe fitted with a spraydeck (stretchy cover to exclude water from canoe). Anyhow, looking back, it was commendable that the club demonstrated a sensible approach by starting with basic safety procedures.
james fleming  
#10 Posted : 27 October 2011 11:47:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
james fleming

Tony.




I have been delivering waterspouts coaching for some time and in Scotland.

There are a lot of good answers here. I would add the following.

In my opinion the two months before and after the new year are too cold for spending 5 minutes in the water outside. Even now in October and March are arguable.

If your delegates are wearing dry suits they will still get cold and loose heat to the water, not as quick as just in neoprene or ordinary clothes. Moreover, it will depend on the layering they have on beneath their dry suite. However, five minutes in the water and extremities will go first; hands and little fingers. If you need to do fiddly operations after getting out of the water then at that time of year digits will get cold and quick. Functionality will degrade rapidly.

However, the flip side of the coin is that people need to experience the conditions of cold also. I agree with this but will try and do my training and basic skills in the warmer weather then go on to develop their skills in the colder periods, building up a resistance, more so to the gag reflex!

That said its back to basics, our fried risk assessment. Yes take into account the cold, water, weather, wind, location, where the nearest warm building is / car, first aid. Personal equipment; layering, dry suite (and it needs to be a dry suit), wet suit, age, ability, medical issues, experience etc. Staff; experience, skill set, safety gear, knowledge of area and access to warm buildings /cars.

Again, in my experience whilst people will rock up and will want to do the tuition. In really cold days they switch off, do not listen and their minds wander to warmer thoughts.
mesixfoot  
#11 Posted : 27 October 2011 15:01:58(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mesixfoot

I would like to thank you all for your comments as mentioned this site is invaluable in the wealth of knowledge and willingness to share it.
Daves Link is excellent and offers lots of information.
Alan, I will check about the capsize drill and put the answer on here. It would be the centre ski that would be tipping over. Most people I feel would be the same about flipping their new toys.
The message as always seems to be preparation and the ability to just say no on the day if conditions dictate.
The Hypothermia information was an eye opener and particularly how fast and silently it can take place.

Again thank you all

Regards

Tony

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