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messyshaw  
#1 Posted : 27 December 2011 15:28:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

For the sake of this post, I am an employer of several hundred people in a urban office environment. An unexpected situation occurs which prevents the vast majority of my staff getting home after a day at work. This might be heavy snow, high winds leading to power outages and fallen trees, floods or perhaps a terrorist type incident resulting in the termination of public transport - You get the idea. Have I a legal duty of care towards my staff and even perhaps visitors who cannot get home, and if so, what should I be considering during any RA of this type of situation? I must stress, I am only interested in what I MUST do(by law), not what I might do if I was a nice cuddly & generous employer, which I am not!!
Canopener  
#2 Posted : 27 December 2011 17:18:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

At the risk of exposing myself to another lecture on the basics of the legal system, it depends what you mean by ‘the law’. I suggest that there probably isn’t any STATUTORY duty to do anything, but happy to hear others thoughts (without the lecture). If you consider the common law duty of care to be ’the law’ or to be a legal duty, then I suppose that a duty MIGHT exist, although I don’t know of any precedent that would fit the situation you describe. Overall, I would suggest not much in the way of a duty for MOST scenarios you describe. Go on; be cuddly!
JJ Prendergast  
#3 Posted : 27 December 2011 21:56:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

You need do nothing. Once they have finished work / going home they are obviously no longer at work. No specific further duty of care.
Paul Duell  
#4 Posted : 28 December 2011 10:23:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul Duell

I agree with previous posters - nothing you HAVE to do. Apart from the fact that that's true on it's own, what COULD you do, within the bounds of SFAIRP? If you were being pink and fluffy (and I know I'm going outside the boundaries of the original question here), the best you could do would be to let people go early and tell them to work from home tomorrow. But in your scenario even that's no good as the roads are at a standstill and they can't get home. We discussed this a couple of years back, we're in central London close to a couple of potential terrorist targets so it's a realistic scenario for us. The best thing we could come up with is let everyone who wants to stay in the office, where at least they'll be warm and dry and could survive for 24 hours on the contents of the vending machines - it wouldn't be comfortable but at least it would be safe
MB1  
#5 Posted : 28 December 2011 10:26:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MB1

For normal weather related travel disruption this should be dealt with HR departments to hand out policies etc. For more severe forms of disruption that may affect business continuity then most large companies have strategy's and policies already in place. It's another hat I have to wear in my current situation and is not a H&S role as such.
HSSnail  
#6 Posted : 28 December 2011 11:09:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

I'm with the no legal duty group here. This does not only happen in rural areas. I remember about 11 years ago Bradford was shut down in the space of about 40 mins by an unexpected snow fall. All routes out were snow bound, the ploughs could not get out for abandoned cars, public transport likewise stuck. The LA opened up the city hall to every one that was stuck and provided blankets etc for the night. The city finally got moving again about 12 midday some 18 hours after it all started. That is the only occasion in 25 years I can remember such a situation arising. Reasonable for companies to plan for it? No.
JJ Prendergast  
#7 Posted : 28 December 2011 11:12:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

Thats the best thing for Bradford ..... shut it down
Guru  
#8 Posted : 28 December 2011 11:41:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Guru

In the spirit of stirring up a debate :) Do we not have a moral duty to ensure staff get home from work safely? Is it not foreseeable, given the way the weather system is these days, that there are times where adverse weather conditions can cause problems for staff travel to and from work, and IS reasonable for employers to plan for it?
HSSnail  
#9 Posted : 28 December 2011 12:07:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

JJ that's why I like this forum so much - such professional postings!
Graham Bullough  
#10 Posted : 28 December 2011 12:27:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Brian - You described the heavy snowfall scenario which affected Bradford. If it happened during a working day with little or no warning, I bet the various companies and other employer organisations there - and especially their employees - which had not planned for such a contingency were very glad that the local authority had done so, even though it was probably part of its legal obligations regarding emergency planning/civil resilience! Are there any forum users in Scotland who can comment on what emergency arrangements were available from local authorities and employers for employees and other people trapped away from home when Central Scotland was badly affected by massive snowfall/s (by Scottish standards) during December 2010?
JJ Prendergast  
#11 Posted : 28 December 2011 12:39:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

Chill out, just a gentle jest
RayRapp  
#12 Posted : 29 December 2011 23:05:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Messy, there is a legal duty and a duty of care, but they are not the same. For a legal duty it must be enshrined in statute law or a common law. Employer's duties are referred to as 'regulatory' law and hence must be written and approved by Parliament. Basically an employer only has a duty for employees whilst they are on the premises or engaged in a work activity. I apologise in advance if my comments are considered a lecture - just trying to be helpful as usual. Happy new year.
Bob Shillabeer  
#13 Posted : 29 December 2011 23:45:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

Ray you introduce an interesting point that is often overlooked. There is a statutory legal duty, a common law duty and a duty of care. All these are enshrined in British law. The duty of care is from statutory law mainly. The thing about snow and other difficult transport issues is outside the legal system in my opinion. Good employers will take an interest in how thier employees can get to work or home but are unable to do that much about it. Please can we be sure about exactly what responsibility is laid down to employers in problamatic conditions affecting the general population as opposed to those in a work environment.
andybz  
#14 Posted : 30 December 2011 08:45:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

Given that employers have been prosecuted when an employee has died in a car crash driving home after work due to fatigue, I wonder if the scenario posed here is so clear cut. If there is a heavy fall of snow and the employer at the end of the working day says "the office is closed, you need to leave" could they be liable if someone then dies of hypothermia whilst attempting to walk home? The issue being that the person would have been safe if they stayed at work but it was reasonably foreseeable that they would ncome to harm outside. I have the same question with the journey to work. If the employer puts undue pressure on its employees to travel in to work, at what point do they become liable for any harm. I don't know the answers. Just interested to hear opinions.
Canopener  
#15 Posted : 30 December 2011 10:06:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

For the most part I would suggest that an employer generally has few if any duties in MOST cases for the situations described at the top of the thread, for ensuring that a person gets home. In saying that there may be a contractual duty such as where an employer provides transport to get workers to and from work, which is a relatively common practice in some industries such as poultry production. I am also not entirely convinced with the statement “.. an employer only has a duty for employees whilst they are on the premises or engaged in a work activity”. While this may be true in many/most cases, the Produce Connection case does seem to suggest that it isn’t quite so clear cut. Likewise I think Andybz makes an interesting point about whether an employer might be found liable (criminal or civil) in the event that they had exerted undue pressure upon an employee to come into work, perhaps against the ‘advice’ of the Police, local agencies etc and the employee subsequently suffered loss or injury as a result. I don’t have the answer nor am I aware of any current case law that might be applicable. However, such is the idiosyncratic nature of our legal system that I wouldn’t be as bold as to suggest that there DEFINITELY isn’t ANY duty.
Cuttell35960  
#16 Posted : 30 December 2011 11:45:34(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Cuttell35960

Legally - Nothing Morally - Perhaps in poor weather conditions (snow etc) you could allow them (or give them the option) to leave early even if you insist that they repay the hours
sara1981  
#17 Posted : 30 December 2011 12:45:56(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
sara1981

I would say it is not the employers responsibility to ensure staff get home safely. However, they should not knowingly put their staff at risk. If it it's been snowing heavily since 8 in the morning, it hasn't stopped and forecast predicts it will continue and you don't allow staff the opportunity to leave early in order to get home safely you may be exposed. In Scotland, when it is snowing heavily we are normally given the opportunity to leave the workplace early to allow us to attempt to get home safely and while its still light (normally making the hours up at some point later in the month). There also has to be some common sense and accountability coming into the travel to work thing, if the roads are clearly unsafe, blocked or whichever it is unfair to expect employees to come in, however, employees should make an effort, if safe to do so to make their way in to work. In Scotland we quite often have people coming in late due to waiting for a snowplough or for daylight and the road conditions to improve, that is perfectly acceptable. Its wide open to discussion.....
Graham Bullough  
#18 Posted : 30 December 2011 15:11:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Sara makes a good point in her response above about employees making up work hours after being allowed to leave work early when bad weather conditions prevailed. For various good reasons there has to be some matching give and take by employees and employers, whether cuddly & generous or not! Also, making up work hours later shouldn't be difficult for employees who are lucky enough to flexitime working arrangements. (Where flexitime systems are feasible, they're surely beneficial for employees and employers alike. A former colleague of mine once described flexitime as one of the best things since sliced bread. However, he wasn't sure when sliced bread was introduced in the UK!)
pete48  
#19 Posted : 30 December 2011 15:19:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

The responsibility for getting to and from their place of work is generally with the employee. Employees choose where to live and in essence choose to take employment when offered. Thus they accept the consequences of those choices. In some cases this may be complicated by cases such as on call/standby, multiple work places, work and/or start from home etc. However, generally the employer can have no duty in that respect. The Produce Connection case was one of extreme circumstances where an employee had been allowed to work an average of 17 hours per day for the previous 7-10 days. I can see no reason why that judgement would impact on the scenario described here. The judgement was about regular and general work activity and patterns where extreme fatigue was foreseeable. I suggest that employers may well be tempted into all sorts of issues if they became actively involved in the decision on whether it is safe for their employees to travel to/from work during periods of inclement weather. It is also interesting to note that employers are not required to pay employees simply because they were unable to travel to/from work during inclement weather or indeed during other failures of transportation systems. However, all that said the better employers recognise that their employees are their assets and have systems to protect or at least minimise the risks to those assets. This is especially so with regard to employees who are critical to the business. That is where the arrangements mentioned by others are founded; not in any H&S duty. Of course any H&S implications of those arrangements would need to be considered. For example making sure the flexible working didn’t contravene the WTD. P48
Canopener  
#20 Posted : 30 December 2011 16:43:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Pete, I believe that both of my previous posts agree with the generality of your recent post i.e. that in most cases the responsibly for getting to and from work lies with the employee and that in most cases the employer doesn’t owe a duty. However, I have also been around long enough to know the quirkiness and idiosyncrasies of the legal system, that suggest to me that you can never say ‘never’. Our own policy on ‘adverse weather’ suggests a number of options for staff and their managers to help manage the implications arising out of adverse weather that allows individuals to take personal responsibility for making the decision about whether to travel to work in adverse weather or whether to leave work earlier than normal in order to get back home at a reasonable time, especially where they have dependant responsibilities and suggests a number of options for working from home, working from other sites etc. My mention of the Produce Connection case was not in relation to the original question asked at the top of the post and nor do I believe that it is relevant to that either, but was rather in response to the specific assertion that “..an employer only has a duty for employees whilst they are on the premises or engaged in a work activity” which I believe is materially incorrect and misleading.
cliveg  
#21 Posted : 30 December 2011 19:26:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
cliveg

Back in 2007 the area I was working in was badly affected by the July floods, and on that fateful Friday it was almost impossible to get anywhere. Many employers let their employees sleep on the floor or anything more comfortable that was to hand. It could be argued that whilst the employees / visitors were still on the premises there was a duty of care, and steps might be taken to make them more comfortable, but it was an emergency situation and they did at least give their people a roof over their heads. In the public interest to prosecute if somehow there was a breach of law? I doubt it. However, could the same have been said if they had kicked them out and exposed them to serious and unpredictable risk of trying to get through floods at night?
RayRapp  
#22 Posted : 31 December 2011 09:34:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

With regards to the law there are always extreme ends of the spectrum where there is a possibility of a new precedent - this is a given. Without a crystal ball one can only work within current boundaries of the law, we can speculate - but that's all. With regards to HSWA, the principal law, s2 and s3 could be wide ranging, especially s3 which takes into account those exposed to risk from the undertaking. As I have said previously, employer's duties only apply to employees whilst they are engaged in a work activity or on the premises. The Duty of Care is, save for the rare exception, a civil law duty and to that end is contextual. In other words, it will be for the court to decide whether a DoC was owed based on the three part test laid down in Caparo Industries plc v Dickman [1990]. A civil law DoC is in effect based on the morality of the circumstances as opposed to any 'legal' duty. There is no 'good Samaritan' duty in the UK which requires one person to assist another regardless of the circumstances or their status. And as we know - morality is a moveable feast, hence the third part of the Caparo test: 'it must be fair, just and reasonable to impose liability' is arguably the most problematic of the three part test.
pete48  
#23 Posted : 31 December 2011 12:33:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Ray, a good second summary and an opinion that I share. It would have to be something exceptional or an exceptionally stupid act/omission that would result in a successfull claim in the circumstances outlined by the O.P. That is clear given that the reasons for acting at all would clearly be 'acts which if taken would prevent or mimimise harm to others.' I suggested earlier that I see nothing beyond the occupier of the premises sensibly having regard to any H&S implications of allowing people to use their premises for purposes other than those normally specified. Any other duty would, as you say, arise as a civil matter. p48
Ron Hunter  
#24 Posted : 03 January 2012 00:08:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Typical scenario is one of major fire, where staff are unable to return to the workplace. In accordance with standing instructions, many will have left directly, leaving car keys etc. behind. The decent thing to do is to have contingency to ensure these people are at least given the means to get home?
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