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palace man  
#1 Posted : 17 January 2012 16:58:47(UTC)
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palace man

I have a project on an existing town house which includes some substantial basement works. The property is owned by the Client and upon completion will be occupied by his family purely for domestic purposes. As such, the client would ordinarily be classified as domestic and thus not notifiable under CDM. However, the works are to be funded by the clients business and by virtue must relate to that business. On this basis I consider the project is notifiable however the HSE believe it depends on what the premises are being used for rather than who is funding it. I wouldn't normally take issue with advice provided by the HSE but on this occassion I believe they may be incorrect. Can anyone assist? Thanks
Ron Hunter  
#2 Posted : 18 January 2012 00:02:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

From what you describe, HSE published advice suggests the Client in this instance would be a 'developer' and not a domestic client. Acid test: If you were to apply Notification, what or who would you identify as the Client on the F10?
steveelliott  
#3 Posted : 18 January 2012 16:37:15(UTC)
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steveelliott

My understanding is that the client's purpose for having the project done is key, not how or who funds it. If the client is to live in it, it is domestic and thus non-notifiable.
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 18 January 2012 22:52:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

The Client is also the person who commissions the other appointments. Where the funding is being provided by the business, this suggests to me that the Client for CDM purposes is the business. Otherwise, it would appear that there is an almighty tax-fiddle going on here!
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 19 January 2012 09:35:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

A grey area, but I tend to agree with steve's post. It is the client and use of the property which determines whether it is a domestic project or not. I had a similar conundrum a while back, where the client was developing his own property but the property had been purchased by an offshore company, which is a tax dodge so I'm told. Tax avoidance is not illegal and the morality of it is of no concern to me.
Stevens25108  
#6 Posted : 19 January 2012 09:50:46(UTC)
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Stevens25108

I concor with Steve and Ray. Whilst we may have moral or ethical frustruations about the source of the funding the fact remains that the client is making alterations to their own home and to this end they are a Domestic Client with no duties under CDM. Having experienced this a number of times myself it is always difficult to drill into the Client's "intentions" for a project when the funding source appears to be a business however, as long as you can be assured that the intention is for domestic pruposes and I dont think the HSE would take anything other than a sympathetic view of your decision not to notify. The important thing is that you ensure the design is considrate of safety outcomes and that the contractor is going to get things right on site with good coordination between all parties, if you acheive this the spirit of CDM will still be an intergal part of the project.
Briano  
#7 Posted : 19 January 2012 12:11:54(UTC)
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Briano

Here is an example of a safety monster in the embroynic stages! Simple question should have a simple answer! The client does not have to notify the HSE - thats it Tax avoidance and fiddles are a separate matter
RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 19 January 2012 12:31:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

'Here is an example of a safety monster in the embroynic stages! Simple question should have a simple answer!' Briano, sorry but I must disagree with you with regards to the above comment - it was not such a simple and clear cut question. The ACoP for CDM Regs (29) state that: 'Local Authorities, housing associations, charities, landlords and other businesses, may own domestic property, but they are not domestic clients.' Ray
Ron Hunter  
#9 Posted : 19 January 2012 12:40:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

And ultimately, only the original poster here has sufficient specific information to actually answer the question?
hussar1420  
#10 Posted : 19 January 2012 12:46:17(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
hussar1420

Ladies and Gents, I feel that I agree with most of you on the issue of this is a domestic client and as such he is not bound by the Notifiable CDM Regulations. He, as a client has to advise his contractor that he has to abide by part 4 of the regulations. The fact that he is doing works in a basement has prompted me to think that the HSE may want to monitor this as a Temporary works project. This a hot topic at the moment and has caused numerous accidents and close calls in London. I hope this helps? Regards Hussar1420
Ron Hunter  
#11 Posted : 19 January 2012 13:09:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

hussar1420 wrote:
Ladies and Gents, I feel that I agree with most of you on the issue of this is a domestic client and as such he is not bound by the Notifiable CDM Regulations. He, as a client has to advise his contractor that he has to abide by part 4 of the regulations. Hussar1420
Domestic Clients have NO CDM duties, unless they seek to control the way the work is actually carried out - in which case Pt 4 duties will also apply to them.
Briano  
#12 Posted : 19 January 2012 13:22:26(UTC)
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Briano

Extract from original Question: The property is owned by the Client and upon completion will be occupied by his family purely for domestic purposes. As a professional you are expected to read between the lines and give appropriate advice -there is no ambugity in the question - it simple and straight forward - end of story - the safety monster is now dead
hussar1420  
#13 Posted : 19 January 2012 13:43:57(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
hussar1420

Domestic Clients have NO CDM duties, unless they seek to control the way the work is actually carried out - in which case Pt 4 duties will also apply to them.
I typed the wrong message, sorry. I meant to say that the designer/structural engineer should have advised the conntractor about Part 4 because of the Temporary Works involved.
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 19 January 2012 15:17:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Of course, having the benefit of reading other poster's comments makes one so much the wiser...
Ron Hunter  
#15 Posted : 20 January 2012 00:00:43(UTC)
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Ron Hunter

Indeed!
palace man  
#16 Posted : 23 January 2012 14:09:11(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
palace man

Thanks for you input. The subject is clearly a divisive one which I will raise at the next APS CPD event.
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