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firesafety101  
#41 Posted : 20 June 2012 21:43:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Bob please keep your all terain wheelchair on a tight leash, you make it sound as if its chomping at the bit :-))
boblewis  
#42 Posted : 20 June 2012 22:46:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

It is - So far one hospital, one church and a library have fallen victim to it.

You need this form to start things rolling

http://www.homeoffice.go...complaints-Equality-Act/

Essentially you complete your question sectiion and then send to the board of governers, copy the head and also the head of the LEA. They must then respond with evidence and you take it from there. The Equality Commission can be helpful.
boblewis  
#43 Posted : 20 June 2012 23:09:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Try this one by the way

http://www.rougemontcham...file/37/sarah-hornblower

Remember that Conditional Fee Agreements are often the route suggested bt the Legal Services Commission rather than legal aid. She does do both in any case

Bob
Graham Bullough  
#44 Posted : 20 June 2012 23:33:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Firesafety101 - In view of your initial and subsequent detailed information about the case I thought that you had a fairly close connection to it, perhaps as a friend of the girl's parents if not as her father. If you haven't already tried the local authority's OS&H team, surely it's worth contacting them to see what practical advice they can give along with a good dose of persuasion if they can be convinced about the merits of the case. In this regard, it's worth adding that the matter is not just about your daughter and the forthcoming play but one which is likely to involve others (pupils, employees and visitors) at schools elsewhere now and in the future.

As regards my earlier suggestion about a ramp, making a suitably sturdy one ought to be relatively simple task for people with moderate DIY ability. Also, the timber for its frame and strong plywood or similar for its surface should cost very little and certainly not hundreds of pounds. Most of the secondary school D&T dept stores I've seen over the years have ample stocks of such materials, and DIY enthusiasts with squirrel-like tendencies like myself also tend to acquire and keep stocks for future projects as they arise. However, perhaps the numbers of DIY enthusiasts are diminishing nowadays.

Significant factors in this case include how much time is left before the end-of-school play takes place and how much floor space would be available for a ramp if built in relation to the area and configuration of the stage and space for spectators, etc.

Boblewis has mentioned OFSTED. It would be interesting to see if and how OFSTED would respond to a complaint about the matter. My own experience of OFSTED in recent years, albeit limited, is that its inspectors seem to be obsessed with the topic of safeguarding and have little understanding of reasonable practicability (OS&H parlance) alias proportionality (education parlance) in relation to it. Even so, it might not do any harm to mention to the school that you are thinking of contacting OFSTED. It seems that some if not most headteachers worry more about adverse comments (whether justified or not) from OFSTED than anything else at work, so the mere mention of OFSTED might well change the school's attitude about the matter!
boblewis  
#45 Posted : 20 June 2012 23:43:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

What we must forget is that once a service pprovider or an employer are claimed to have discriminated the Burden of Proof is upon them to Prove they have not done so - beyond reasonable doubt. Like HASAWA this is a reversal of the normal burden.

I would be certainly looking toward a fromal complaint in the County Court using any BTE Legal Insurance, personal funding or a CFA as advised by a solicitor. The school needs to know this is serious and an appropriate action is the formal questionnaire. Remember the damages are unlimited and may benefit a charity if that is what you wish

Bob
Wood28983  
#46 Posted : 21 June 2012 09:48:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Wood28983

The local authority is likely to have an Equalities Officer or similar. It's worth talking to them.

In terms of solicitors try Govan Law Centre.
NLivesey  
#47 Posted : 21 June 2012 10:08:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NLivesey

Firesafety101

I'm sure I'm not alone wishing you the best of luck with this. It's one thing battling against descrimination for a colleague or member of staff, altogether a more stressful task doing it for close family. You've got a lot of support here so don't be backwards in coming forwards for advice/assistance.

Not got a lot of experience in this field personally but one thing that has come to mind is the support that local groups could provide with this. I'm sure there'll be a network of people who experience similar issues to your daughter in your local area. May be worth contacting your local health authority to find out if they have any contact details for support groups, they in turn may have details for a suitable/reputable solicitor who specialises in disability descrimination.

Of course there's always the option of a call to your local press but that may be a double edged sword.

All the best.
Graham Bullough  
#48 Posted : 21 June 2012 11:05:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Nlivesey definitely isn't alone with his sentiments and advice. As an additional approach, how about trying to contact one or more paralympians? Even though they're busy people and there might not be much time left before the end of the school term, it's worth a go. Even if this suggestion doesn't help in this particular case, it remains appropriate for future use by others in similar circumstances.

As an aside, when I was at secondary school in the late 1960s/early 1970s, one of our year group, Chris, was a wheelchair user. As our main school building (built early 1960s) had 3 floors, various stairways and no lifts, it was standard practice for groups of pupils to lift Chris in his wheelchair up and down the stairs so that he could access lessons on the upper floors. All of us, including Chris himself, seemed happy with the arrangement which usually involved 6 lifters, preferably strong muscular pupils, and I don't recall any problems occurring during such lifts. Goodness knows if the arrangement was specifically arranged/sanctioned by adult members of school staff. Our perception was that Chris clearly needed assistance to get up and down the stairs and therefore most of us were willing to help out as and when required. That seemed to be part of the 'consideration for others' culture encouraged by the school and especially its headteacher at the time.
Ron Hunter  
#49 Posted : 21 June 2012 13:36:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Firesafety: Here's a company doing day hire of portable wheelchair lift (up to 1.52m). Scroll down for an impressive listing of previous event use.

http://www.bentleyfielde...wheelchair-lifts_68.html

(Other hire companies and similar equipment available)
chris42  
#50 Posted : 21 June 2012 15:30:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

When this topic came up and cost was brought into the mix I looked to see how much the hire of this type of kit cost. I could not find out direct off the Internet, you have to phone, which I did (different company to the one mentioned). Just purely for knowledge, I was quoted just under £1,000 for a week. This included delivery, set up and collection (one day / one week same cost). This was more than I expected, when to buy new was £6,800 ( from above company), seemed a bit disproportionate.

I still feel she is being discriminated against and that something should be provided to get her on stage, but for short term the ramp would be more appropriate in the economic climate. Long term this is something I feel the schools should be looking into either themselves or collectively (technically they have had quite a few years to get to grips with this).

But cost was not an issue in the end as it was said the head was offered the necessary equipment. I feel there could very easily be up to 15 other children who may be miffed at not being on the stage, and hope they do not blame the young lady or disabled people as a whole. Not the message that should be given out at school IMO.

I suspect the head will remain adamant that the play was always to be at two levels for artistic reasons ( or such like). However as previously suggested why did they try and get her on stage if this was the case and why were they offered a ramp / stair climbing chair by the access officer. Do they just randomly go around offing equipment for no apparent reason?
I do hope the young lady gets her wish to be “centre Stage” not hidden out of the limelight.
firesafety101  
#51 Posted : 21 June 2012 17:35:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Thanks everyone, I am so grateful for all the assistance. I am still waiting for the governors to get back to me but may try Bob's Home Office form and even the other stuff mentioned.

The LEA H&S team are not powerful enough to demand the school do anything I'm afraid.

One thing is for certain I will not give this up, even after my daughter leaves that school.

There have been other parents who have removed children from the school because of similar issues, I don't give up easily.

Thanks.
boblewis  
#52 Posted : 21 June 2012 22:36:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Firesafety

Do not wait on the procrastination of the governers = send the question sheet in asap. Even after the end of the year discrimination has still occurred on a specific date and can be taken to court. The form will let the LA lawyers know you mean business.

Bob
achrn  
#53 Posted : 22 June 2012 08:25:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

boblewis wrote:

Do not wait on the procrastination of the governers = send the question sheet in asap. Even after the end of the year discrimination has still occurred on a specific date and can be taken to court. The form will let the LA lawyers know you mean business.


In other circumstances do you exhort people not to wait for the dithering of the H&S bloke, get your (CFA) accident claim lawyer on the case immediately?

Some governors may dither, and I'm sure there are even some bad chairs of governors, but a blanket tarring of governors as procrastinating is unfair. Most are taking responsibility for running a multi-million-pound turnover operation and doing it for free. How many multi-million-pound companies pay their board of directors nothing? In my experience, most governors take their role seriously.

By all means, if the governors don't respond properly, then it needs escalating, but leaping straight to lawyers and legal action before the governors have had a reasonable opportunity to do anything is not appropriate, in my opinion.
hilary  
#54 Posted : 22 June 2012 11:21:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

Firesafety101

I wish you luck in your quest.

I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to exclude your daughter, but their understanding of her needs and your needs is probably skewed by the need to get KS2 exams done, get the new intake sorted, get the year 6s off to their new schools and put on this end of school production. I know, excuses, excuses. It doesn't help you, it isn't right, but it is a fact of life.

I can only keep my fingers crossed in the hopes that the powers that be realise that it is just not acceptable for her to be treated less favourably than anyone else because of her disability and that equal attention does not signify equal treatment. Some people are more equal than others and need additional attention.

Fingers crossed

Hilary
SP900308  
#55 Posted : 22 June 2012 13:15:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SP900308

Firesafety101,
Good luck, my boy has a disability but I'm happy to report that his School is a proactive one.

Tell the School Head that if he/she can't manage to get a few pieces of timber together, then you'll drum up some support / fund raising to get it done via the local 'stress' - sorry 'press'. That'll make the ears prick-up!

Seriously though, good luck to you and yours.
firesafety101  
#56 Posted : 22 June 2012 13:34:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Bob I've done the form and ready to send to the Director of Education this afternoon. Thanks for the pointers.

SP900308 Thanks also to you for your support, lucky you having a school like you have.

My daughter is heading for Secondary next September and we are having lots of meetings ahead of that. They seem to be looking forward to my daughter being there and are being pro-active, putting in lifts and ramps, and refitting a teacher's office into a changing room with WC etc.

I keep banging on at them about what's gone on in the past trying to make sure they "get the picture".

Thanks to all for your support, I'll let you know how it goes.

firesafety101  
#57 Posted : 19 July 2012 15:14:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I chased up my complaint today and find that the LEA sent the complaint to their Solicitors who then sent the complaint back to the school for them to deal with.

I'm not happy about this firstly as no one told me, secondly I have exhausted to complaint as far a s the school is concerned, letter from Chair of Governors.

Spoke with the Headteacher today and he said I now have to request an Appeal Committee by writing to the Chair of Governors again.

Done this, not holding my breath as they break up tomorrow so it will be Autumn before I hear from them again.

Have a good summer you lot, and thanks again for all the suggestions.
boblewis  
#58 Posted : 19 July 2012 22:47:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Firesafety

They have 8 weeks to respond otherwise they are deemed "Failed to Acknowledge" which means you can achieve a Judgement by Default. Diary the service date and chase up at precisely 8 weeks.

At the end of the day the courts and procedures are there to protect people so why should they not be used just as with legislation.

Bob

paul.skyrme  
#59 Posted : 19 July 2012 23:20:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Firesafety101,

Whilst we "may" differ on the exact details of your issue, we have not discussed these in detail I appreciate.
You are 1000% (not a typo) entitled to your "opinion" and support in this matter from all related parties, and a suitable response from the "defendant", as boblewis says, ensure that you chase them to the full extent of the "law", it is your right, just as it is the right of many others to do things that we may feel are "inappropriate"!

Go for it young man, it is your right and that of the "IP".

I hope you get the best result for you all.
Alex Whittle  
#60 Posted : 19 July 2012 23:36:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Alex Whittle

I personnally think it is down to poor planning on the schools part. It p*!@*s me off when people use H&S as an excuse not to manage. At no point has anyone really thought about the beaming smile not only of the child but of the parents / audience, with the fact that the school went out of their way to accomodate and make reasonable adjustments to include all.
We could get realy arsey about this and question why all the other kids are perfoming at height, is there edge protection around the stage?
Simple solution, bring in a ramp arrangement from another faction of the local authority, that cares for wheelchair users. Emphasis on that fact that they are people. They will have PUWER compliant equipment. A few phone calls is all it would take. I am sure that if a dignitory were to visit things would be very, very different.
I hope things work out
Good luck firesafety101
TSC  
#61 Posted : 20 July 2012 06:57:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
TSC

I cannot believe that a school would not look to include the child and as an earlier post said, the school years are part of a child's life education.

I take it by the waiting 'firesafety101' that the play is now completed with it being the last day of term. Although not disabled my youngest son broke his leg a few weeks back and was on crutches for his play last week with a plaster cast on and he has a big part already scripted.

The school teacher re-written his intial part to put the broken leg into the story so where flexible, they did think about excluding him on the basis of the policy for schools with kids with plaster casts but luckily they realised I revised this and re-issued it when with the local authority a few years ago and knew exactly what it said.

I find it disappointing that a total misunderstanding of H&S by some (yes, some not all schools) forces them into decisions that (in my opinion) are not justifiable. I wish you well with the developments in this.
boblewis  
#62 Posted : 20 July 2012 23:27:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

tsc

Unfortunately I am beginning to see in a number of LA departments an increasing reluctance to act in accordance with responsibilities or duties. My recent experiences have concerned Pat M of the Building Regs and lack of enforcement by Building Control. A sign of the times perhaps but in the end I trust the ostriches will get their head out of the sand. The attempt by the LEA to pass this back to the school is much like the buck passing I have met in Building Control departments across the country.

If BC will not enforce the Accessibilty requirements of PArt M what price other LA departments.

Bob
david leniewski  
#63 Posted : 21 July 2012 10:52:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
david leniewski

As the school not heard of mewps, could they not approach their local HSS tool hire shops, they have a lift and shift department, and after explaining the situation, I would not be surprised if they could not offer a discount or donation for the equipment, after all its a good cause and only for one performance.
If the chair as to stay on the floor she can still hold her head up high.
Best of luck
firesafety101  
#64 Posted : 21 July 2012 12:12:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

My daughter had her last day at the school yesterday and I went to see the Leavers Service.

This involved every child standing up and talking about their favourite memories of being at the school, a gift of a dictionary from the Parents Association and a presentation of photos of the kids both as a younger child and up to date.

I have attended a similar event three years ago when my son was there and his Leavers Service involved all children on the stage that was kept in place following the play.

Guess what?

The stage has been removed and all children were on the floor.

Graham Bullough  
#65 Posted : 22 July 2012 00:09:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

firesafety101 - Perhaps your previous approaches to the school, LEA, etc had some effect although not in the way you expected. It's possible that a decision was made to hold the event without a stage for several reasons. In addition to eliminating the need for a ramp to allow access by your daughter in her wheelchair, having no stage (with a finite area) perhaps enabled more children to appear and move about unhindered in front of the audience. Also, nobody would need to worry about the prospect of any of the children falling off the edges of a stage. Did the absence of a stage significantly detract from the event? Also, just to avoid any ambiguity, was the Leavers' Service the same event as the play you mentioned in your opening post?

In posing the above thoughts and questions, I'm not attempting to defend the school - just using the limited information available via this thread to try to put the situation into context among the many other matters affecting the school.

On a positive note, you mentioned at #56 meetings with your daughter’s next school and that the people there are being pro-active and making appropriate arrangements and alterations. This bodes well for your daughter and also for any similar pupils there in future. In view of the new school’s attitude and actions, it seems that the people with whom you’ve had meetings have already “got the picture”. This seems to eliminate any need for you to bang on about past circumstances and risk being perceived as whinging and unreasonable. In this respect, I'm not suggesting that these adjectives apply to you. It's a reflection of the wider fact that how and what people try to communicate to others often influences how others perceive and respond to them.

p.s. The apparently unexpected action by the school reminds me of a situation during a school 6th form residential geography field trip I went on many years ago. After the first night one of my friends complained to the proprietress of the boarding house where we were staying that his bed was wobbly because one of its legs was loose due to one or more defective or missing bolts. We came back from our excursion that day expecting to find that the loose leg had been secured. However, it had been removed - along with the other three legs, presumably because no suitable bolts were readily available for securing it! :-)
firesafety101  
#66 Posted : 06 November 2012 22:34:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

My wife and I attended a meeting with the school governors following my raising this as a discrimination complaint.

The decision of the governors is that no discrimination took place.

They advise me to write to the Secretary of State (whoever that is) if I wish to take it further.

I have written to my MP Esther McVey MP who has recently been appointed as minister for disabled people - or Under Secretary of State for Dept of work and pensions.

I'll let you know what she says but I'm definitely not holding y breath.
firesafety101  
#67 Posted : 08 November 2012 10:43:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

This is back on the go now, following the delayed complaint meeting with the school governors.

I have received some very good support from our members via pm's and thanks to them for that guidance.

I will be reporting this matter to the Special Educational Needs and Disability - Appeals HM Courts & Tribunals Service.

I have the form downloaded/printed and will be completing and sending it off ASAP.

They say 20 weeks is the usual time for a result.

I will not be asking for financial compensation but will be asking for an admission with apology to my daughter followed by training for staff in an effort to prevent this happening to anyone else in future.

Of course a little bad publicity for the school would not go amiss.

I will keep you posted.

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