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chris42  
#41 Posted : 12 July 2012 18:11:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Sorry Phillips20760 I seem to have repeated your thought, I had not read yours before posting mine, typed offline. Nice to know others have had a similar thought. Additionally it was the shattered lives campaign I got the stats from.
RayRapp  
#42 Posted : 12 July 2012 22:25:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

On a more serious note, is turning a 'blind eye' okay or is it hypocrisy? I guess it depends on the perceived level of risk. I accept that I'm old school and coming from high risk industries I find that minor risks are not too high on my list ie staff putting up bunting on ceilings. Good Lord, if there are not enough jobworth's out there as it is worrying about all manner of petty things whilst ignoring the real risks because they often have to DO something meaningful - now that is hypocrisy. As for behavioural safety...the next time someone asks me about it I'm gonna reach for my gun! Good night.
Graham Bullough  
#43 Posted : 12 July 2012 23:49:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

chris42 - I interpreted Mr Flibble's response at #36 as being a whimsical one and replied to it in similar vein, and now offer apologies to anyone who may have misunderstood the humour involved. Thus, I've not changed sides in this discussion. My experience of office desks I've used or seen in various workplaces over the years is that they have been invariably sturdy - built like proverbial outhouses as some might say. However, that's just my own experience and others like you may well have different views. Therefore, you are right to state from your experience that some desks, especially modern ones, seem sturdy when new but are prone to lose their sturdiness particularly if they've been moved about a few times. From this it seems sensible to suggest that anyone intending to use a desk or chair to gain some height should briefly check its stability first. This can be done by grasping it and trying to shuggle (push and pull) it. If it can be made to move, this suggests that it might not be sufficiently sturdy. A non-work analogy of this occurs when rock climbers and mountain scramblers try to check the stability of potential hand and footholds before applying full weight to them. p.s. At the time of posting this response, the listings page showed that this thread had received 773 viewings. Although this might suggest viewings by hundreds of different people, it could also reflect multiple viewings by a smaller number of people! Therefore, please can anyone involved in operating the IOSH forums system advise if it has the capacity to detect and show how many DIFFERENT people view each thread?
Hospital Boy  
#44 Posted : 13 July 2012 07:45:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Hospital Boy

Intresting thread.....some intresting points of view.. Graham...you really need to get a life!!!
MaxPayne  
#45 Posted : 13 July 2012 08:13:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MaxPayne

If a meteor hit earth we could all die.......... 9.9999 times out of 10 standing on a solid desk to put up bunting is not going to cause injury. It's not about removing all risk. Try to remember that.
Has common sense deserted everyone except Clairel here or is the media's portrayal of our profession sadly becoming a reality? What would you have the poor employer do, ban everyone from doing anything by way of celebrating a national event, bunting, flag waving, silly hats, etc ... I suspect that approach would be pilloried too. I've stood on desks and even swivel chairs, but I survived. I've even been known to wave a flag without having someone's eye out, I also got to light the BBQ once this summer and it didn't explode, burn the house down or do anything other than burn a few burgers. Get a grip people !!!!
Phillips20760  
#46 Posted : 13 July 2012 09:24:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

You don't write for the Daily Mail do you Max? The discussion isn't the banning of bunting, or BBQ's, just a sensible discussion about sensible precuations, i.e. use a stepladder. It's that type of attitude that gives rise to conkers bonkers. In the wider picture, it reminds me of the whole "Cool Britannia" scenario with Blair's cringe-worthy attempt to be "cool". Seems to be that's what the profession is trying to do at the moment. Sometimes we will have to make unpopular decisions and unfortunatley guys you will *sometimes* be seen as un-cool. Deal with it. I agree a change of image is required in the industry but surely this will be achieved by how we do things and not what we do. It will do nothing to the image of H&S, or yourself as a professional, by turning a blind eye and giving contrasting & inconsistant advice dependant on whether the hazard is in an office or in a workshop.
Norfolkboy  
#47 Posted : 13 July 2012 10:11:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Norfolkboy

Chris , I am probably a jobsworth - but under no circumstances would I allow staff to climb onto desks. Use a stepladder thats what they are for !!
Clairel  
#48 Posted : 13 July 2012 10:18:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Is that right Mr Phillips. So it's people like me and Max and Ray (and others) that give the industry a bad reputation is it, just because we are prepared to accept a relatively safe and infrequent practice of standing on a solid desk to put up decorations. And my (and their) image as a 'professional' is tarnished by such judgements is it. Really................... Think I'll leave it there and not rise to it. I'm not the one who's resorted to questioning your professionalism just becuase of your stance on the subject or blaming the likes of you for H&S's bad image. So I wonder who's the more professional and gives the better image???????
sean  
#49 Posted : 13 July 2012 10:54:45(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Right let me try again....... Are you all saying its ok to send a written communication saying what the staff are allowed to do but then not provide the correct equipment to do the task safely? You all seem to think there's a desk below the area where the bunting will be hung? Unfortunately there isn't.
chris42  
#50 Posted : 13 July 2012 11:12:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Sean Why not get one of the employees to ask the manager in question what they should use to help them put up the bunting. Then sit back and watch what happens, the manager created the issue let them sort it.
Hally  
#51 Posted : 13 July 2012 11:36:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hally

Get them to move a desk (obv ensuring they've had MH training ;))
Victor Meldrew  
#52 Posted : 13 July 2012 11:50:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Victor Meldrew

I just hope the Daily Mail doesn't get hold of this thread :-)
Andrew W Walker  
#53 Posted : 13 July 2012 12:00:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

We noticed earlier today that there was something "hanging" from the vent of the aircon unit that is positioned directly above a pod of 5 desks. Upon closer inspection it turned out to be dust and the such like. How did we get to it: a) stand on the desk b) move the desks and use a step ladder Over the weekend we plan to have the unit serviced and cleaned. How are we going to do this? a) stand on the desks. b) move the desks and erect a platform Answers on a postcard to... Andy
teh_boy  
#54 Posted : 13 July 2012 12:07:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

Graham Bullough wrote:
Mr.Flibble Also, good job you claimed copyright for your idea so as to warn off the hordes of people who will think your idea is the best thing since the introduction of sliced bread and therefore be tempted to emulate it. (Does anyone happen to know what was the best thing BEFORE sliced bread?!) (That's enough from me now in view of my continuing aspiration to brevity on this forum!)
The break knife... I need to open my office window (the aircon makes my eyes red), I can do it if I kneel on my desk. having read this thread I am going to move my corner desk out - this involves unplugging 4 pc,s and associated devices (so I best clear the desks first) I then need to move some other stuff. I'm going to go down to the storeroom and get a step ladder and carry it up to my office. As the window is on the second floor - uhoh - our standard risk assessments / method statements won't cut it as I have to class the work as life critical and so think I should use permitry to control the risk. As I can't errect scaffold outside I think I am going to use a harness to stop me falling out - but I need a tested anchor point first.... hmmmm and a harness and lanyard! OK that's not RP so... On second thoughts, I'm going to work from home, or maybe I could get a contractor in :) happy Friday
teh_boy  
#55 Posted : 13 July 2012 12:08:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

DOH @Graham - the bread knife - not a break knife :) Now I need to waster 30 seconds of my life waiting to post a second message :) - DOH!
teh_boy  
#56 Posted : 13 July 2012 12:11:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

Motorhead wrote:
We noticed earlier today that there was something "hanging" from the vent of the aircon unit that is positioned directly above a pod of 5 desks. Upon closer inspection it turned out to be dust and the such like. How did we get to it: a) stand on the desk b) move the desks and use a step ladder Over the weekend we plan to have the unit serviced and cleaned. How are we going to do this? a) stand on the desks. b) move the desks and erect a platform Answers on a postcard to... Andy
For the dust option - use a long handled duster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! J0b Dun or how I would control the risk at home.... don't dust :) Part B - I would do properly!
MaxPayne  
#57 Posted : 13 July 2012 12:19:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MaxPayne

quote=Clairel]Is that right Mr Phillips. So it's people like me and Max and Ray (and others) that give the industry a bad reputation is it, just because we are prepared to accept a relatively safe and infrequent practice of standing on a solid desk to put up decorations. And my (and their) image as a 'professional' is tarnished by such judgements is it. Really................... Think I'll leave it there and not rise to it. I'm not the one who's resorted to questioning your professionalism just because of your stance on the subject or blaming the likes of you for H&S's bad image. So I wonder who's the more professional and gives the better image???????
Well said Clairel ! This is exactly why I seldom post on this forum any longer; in fact it's got to the point where I almost feel the recession is a good thing for the industry which has been saturated with those tasked with managing risk choosing instead to be 100% risk adverse. Employers have absolutely no need for that approach and those following that mantra add nothing of value. I'm going to stop as I'm sure I'll get the cotton-wool professionals up in arms; whatever happened to sensible risk management?
Andrew W Walker  
#58 Posted : 13 July 2012 12:22:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

Originally Posted by: teh_boyFor the dust option - use a long handled duster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! J0b Dun or how I would control the risk at home.... don' Go to Quoted Post
There were a couple of young ladies who reside at that particular pod and they were a tad alarmed at the "thing hanging down". So- in true Superman style- one of the gents got the "thing" down. As for your answer to part B- Correct!! After reading this thread I feel I will have to partake in a few cold beers later tonite. Andy
Mr.Flibble  
#59 Posted : 13 July 2012 12:56:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

Coming soon The Deskmaster 3000 (c) Mr.Flibble The Deskmaster 3000 for those occasions when a ladder just won't do. Features of the Deskmaster 3000: ~ Weight rated up to 500Kg ~ Slide up locking in hand-rails ~ Locking in points for a lanyard ~ Slide out access steps ~ Wheels can fitted for portability (Optional) ~ Comes in various colours (Brown or Dark Brown) ~ Fully complies with The Work at Height Regulations 2005 Coming soon from all reputable retailers. Pre-Order now to receive a discount on the Chairstair (c) Mr.Flibble. *Please note Mr.Flibble Ltd takes no responsibility for people having a lack of humour and does not endorse the use of this product in anyway.
chris42  
#60 Posted : 13 July 2012 13:24:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Ref Deskmaster 3000 Are the slide out access steps normally referred to as desk draws or are they in addition? Is the brown / dark brown finish impregnated with grit to provide a non slip surface? 500kg that's about 78.5 stone, so rated for several people + tools etc, nice. If you take the optional wheels add on, can a motor mover similar to caravans be fitted ?
colinreeves  
#61 Posted : 13 July 2012 13:50:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

MaxPayne wrote:
I also got to light the BBQ once this summer
Errrr, this what?
Phillips20760  
#62 Posted : 13 July 2012 13:57:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Phillips20760

Sean, Apologies if your thread was hi-jacked. As you can see by the responses there are obvious differing views on the subject. You have two options you either turn a blind eye and accept the risk or you follow the HSE's stance and provide a suitable stepladder. As you can tell, I perscribe to the HSE's guidance of avoiding standing on furniture: http://www.hse.gov.uk/sh...ucation.htm#js_avoiding1 http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/nov07.htm http://www.hse.gov.uk/ri...s/pdf/officecleaning.pdf Clarel, Didn't intend to question your personal professionalism, and didn't mean for my post wouldn't be read that way. I was merely commenting on the wider issue of differing opinions not being helpful to the industry as a whole - especially when the HSE's stance seems quite clear in my opinion (see links above). That said, it is your opinion, and therefore is respected - albeit wholeheartedly disagreed with. crack on (although not by standing on furniture ;-o). Ian
sean  
#63 Posted : 13 July 2012 14:23:12(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Nobody has answered my question? I understand all your comments and agree with them all, I don't really care about desks, bunting etc.. etc... I want to know if its ok to give staff an instruction and then not supply a safe way of carrying it out? I have not interfered in this at work except to tell the manager concerned to send out another email to managers to ensure its done as safely as possible. I am not a member of the fun police I just feel that if you say its ok to do something then you should at least provide the equipment or tools possible to carry that task out
chris42  
#64 Posted : 13 July 2012 14:45:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Sorry Sean for helping to send this thread the way it went. So to answer your question, No it’s not alright, the original email should have included a small comment for it to be carried out safely. Graham I knew you had not chained opinion, I was also jesting. I find it good that you have taken the time to debate it. So It seems that some people don’t feel the working at height regulations apply or that all desks are designed to take the weight of an adult. Going back to my point, I still feel that a company with 20 workers, would have significant problems if a senior sales person was not able to go to customers for 10 weeks, due to a broken leg / arm and so could not drive. We do not all work in very high risk industries, so perhaps the government is correct and offices are low risk, so anything goes. However I do not see the difference in allowing someone to stand on a desk or someone standing on an upturned metal 205 Litre drum in a factory. To explain a previous comment where I said “shop floor employees had a go at me for being complicit with such a situation”. I had not actually seen the transgression they referred to (standing on an old oil drum) when I walked through the factory, my focus was on something else. I knew they would never believe this, so accepted it and tried to do better thereafter. I never said bunting etc should not be put up, I would just find a way they didn’t have to stand on desks to do so. Clairel – I value your opinions on this forum ( I may not always agree, but value them all the same), you are the author of my favourite post on this forum, about aliens landing (tried to find it again, but it was a long time ago and failed). Maxpayne – I’m sorry you feel it’s not worth debating issues like this with people like me, and so choose to limit your input to the forum. I have tried my best to be courteous when challenging others. If you look at the number of people that have looked at this thread, over 1000, indicates that this topic and the arguments for both views is by no means uninteresting. I will add your new term “cotton wool professional” (I quite like this term) to my list, which also includes overzealous, jobs worth, kill joy. Thinking about it there does not seem to be a term for the less than zealous (not suggesting anyone here is), you know the ones that don’t implement sufficient controls, not that I have noticed anyway.
RayRapp  
#65 Posted : 13 July 2012 15:46:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

sean wrote:
Nobody has answered my question? I understand all your comments and agree with them all, I don't really care about desks, bunting etc.. etc... I want to know if its ok to give staff an instruction and then not supply a safe way of carrying it out? I have not interfered in this at work except to tell the manager concerned to send out another email to managers to ensure its done as safely as possible. I am not a member of the fun police I just feel that if you say its ok to do something then you should at least provide the equipment or tools possible to carry that task out
Sean, if it was me I would do one of two things. First, I would allow buntings, xmas decorations, whatever, to be hung up on ceilings. Second, at the very most I would add a caveat - 'please remember to use robust equipment fit for the purpose.' No mention of chairs, desks or step ladders.
Clairel  
#66 Posted : 13 July 2012 17:06:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

chris42 wrote:
Clairel – I value your opinions on this forum ( I may not always agree, but value them all the same), you are the author of my favourite post on this forum, about aliens landing (tried to find it again, but it was a long time ago and failed).
Ha ha...yes I remember that one. I'm sure it was probably pulled by the mods for expressing a sense of humour resulting in one of my many slaps on the wrists! Phillips - You mention the HSE guidance quite a bit. I was trained as an inspector by the HSE. Take of that what you will!! Sean - Ppersonally I wouldn't have batted an eyelid about the fact that he has said people could put up bunting without actually specifying that they should do it safely or how they should do it. At what point do you stop putting in back covering statments? Yes you can make a coffee but please ensure the kettle is PAT tested first and that you feel competent to pour boling water from one vessle to another???? Just a thought........
pete48  
#67 Posted : 14 July 2012 12:20:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Sean, I can see your dilemma. Managers et all issue instruction or give approvals based on an expectation that their staff will do that work efficiency, effectively and safely. That, after all, is what most company policies on any subject require of managers and employees. The reality of that expectation, however, ranges from total confidence to total assumption. So to illustrate one of the difficulties, we could simply categorise people into 3 groups. 1. People who know how to carry out a task properly, understand the dangers and their controls and consistently and rigorously apply those controls. 2. People as above but who choose, or feel compelled to choose, methods which use lesser controls because it enables them to get the job done. 3. People who do not know how to do the job properly, do not understand the dangers or the controls and therefore take unnecessary risks. (n.b. unnecessary is stressed in this sentence.) People who work in offices would probably fall within group 3 with regard to WAH. There is no need for them to have received any formal information about low level falls. They may have some personal experience, indeed as some would have us believe we may all have it as a life skill, we may not. If this potential for loss had been recognised by the manager then maybe some specific checks and balances would have been helpful and prevented exposure to unnecessary risk. (e.g. OK but use the mtce crew to put it up or make sure we use the steps etc) In my opinion, there is no difference between the person in the factory using an oil drum to stand on and someone in the office climbing onto a desk. One might argue the semantics of stability to the nth degree but it is the same outcome, unnecessary risk. The fact that either event occurs demonstrates an unacceptable culture or approach to managing H&S in the workplace and a potential gap between the manager’s expectation of his staff and reality. Let’s return now to the practicality of hanging the bunting and the accusation of “cotton wool professionals”. So what is the proper method to access the ceiling? Why--it is steps or other temporary access platforms. So what is the proper way to do the job? Access those parts of the ceiling which are possible using access kit and hang the bunting from those points. We have the job done without unnecessary and/or additional risk. Ah but, they say, we want to hang them from above Pete’s desk. OK, so can we assume that desk is a safe working platform? No, because that is not what it is designed for. Could it be a safe working platform? Yes, of course it could but not without some forethought and one or two simple checks. And that is the crux for me; not the technicalities of whether it could but whether the people deciding to use it would even stop to think. Thus we introduce unnecessary risks! On the other hand we may have employees who are capable of making those quick mental assessments but even then they should still be asking themselves ‘is it worth the risk’ for bit of bunting. If they don’t do this then we get back to situations where we will have unnecessary risks in our business. I keep a copy of an accident report in my records to remind me that, despite many years in high risk sectors, I must never allow myself to be drawn into the “it doesn’t matter, it is not a significant risk” frame of mind. It is not just the significance of a risk but whether it is necessary to be exposed to the risk that is important. The simple details of the accident were that a female employee, who had osteoporosis, had climbed onto her desk in stockinged feet in order to hang an Xmas decoration. The desk partially collapsed due to a damaged longitudinal strut in the frame. She had taken her shoes off to avoid “getting the desk top dirty” so she slipped badly as the desk moved, she fell and broke her leg. She was off work for 6 months. It was the most significant accident, in terms of lost time, in the company for 5 years. p48
RayRapp  
#68 Posted : 15 July 2012 21:22:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Pete Interesting comments and observations. Some of which I do agree with, however playing Devil's advocate I will respond with my own version of events. First, not in your list of unsafe acts is no.4. People who do not do the task safely for fear of the sanctions which may be applied by their workmates or superiors. You have made a number of assumptions, including that people who work in offices 'do not understand the dangers or the controls and therefore take unnecessary risks.' We are talking about hanging bunting, not exactly rocket science, are 'people' really that naive? I don't think so. 'In my opinion, there is no difference between the person in the factory using an oil drum to stand on and someone in the office climbing onto a desk.' I don't agree. It's a bit like saying standing on a toolbox introduces the same risk as standing on a desk. How far down the road do you want to go in making comparisons which are not really like for like. In an ideal world access to the ceiling should be done with sturdy equipment ie step ladder. That said, some organisations consider step ladders unsafe W@H and have banned them! It will also depend on the height of the ceiling and the dexterity of the person doing the task. A sturdy desk could be used without much if any extra '' risk. This is the crux of the matter. In your post you talk about introducing unnecessary risks as if the office staff are playing Russian roulette with six shooter. Introducing a worst case scenario has become so familiar in the forums, as if this in itself is reason enough. We seldom manage health and safety on a worst case scenario, but on the probability of the outcome, otherwise in our RAs it would be death for every adverse event. Incidentally, the female staff with osteoporosis needs her head examined. Finally, the difference in opinions on the methodology employed on hanging bunting in the office is subtly divided by 'perceptions' in my opinion. I try not to treat my staff like children, there is enough negative publicity in our industry as it is. I want people to understand the difference between trivial everyday life risks and those which could kill them. The truth is, whether we are talking about office bunting or Xmas decorations in the home, people will stand on chairs, tables, or whatever is to hand. If they do fall of and hurt themselves then they will be a lot more careful next time - learning life's risks. Ray
Clairel  
#69 Posted : 16 July 2012 10:07:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Pete - I wrote a lenghty reponse. Then I deleted it. No point arguing with someone like you. You and me will never sing from the same hym sheet. Think I'll leave it there.
HelenEvans  
#70 Posted : 16 July 2012 10:57:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HelenEvans

I do sometimes wish that IOSH could provide us with a 'like' button against some responses. So with the absence of such button; Clairel - brilliant comments, couldn't agree more. Like.
MaxPayne  
#71 Posted : 16 July 2012 11:50:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MaxPayne

HelenEvans wrote:
I do sometimes wish that IOSH could provide us with a 'like' button against some responses. So with the absence of such button; Clairel - brilliant comments, couldn't agree more. Like.
You mean the sort of thumbs up/down option that apeears on the likes of YouTube? At least the last few posts have been from the sensible side of the community, so a thumbs up to that; I'm singing with Clairel.
chris42  
#72 Posted : 16 July 2012 14:46:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

On the apparently non sensible side from the HSE’s shattered lives campaign, extracted information from the practical guidance options:- Working at height - Practical Guidance for Schools What could go wrong • Whilst using wrong equipment (Table/desk/chair/books) gives way when teacher stands on it. The above seems to be reasonably clear the HSE consider desks to be the wrong equipment to stand on. So don’t you think that one could be forgiven for thinking you should not do it? Just a thought. I wonder if anyone following this thread has changed which side of the fence they are on. I suspect not, but isn’t it odd that one of the requirements of the job is to persuade others, whether that is to do something they don’t want to or to stop doing something they don’t need to. Yet it seems we cannot persuade one another. I wonder if in ten years’ time there will be a new thread on this forum having the same discussion, because of our inability to reach a consensus (other than agreeing to disagree) via debate. Wouldn't’t it be nice if there was some official body that weighed up the arguments, came to a decision and we all worked to it. I used to think it was the HSE, but it seems not.
Clairel  
#73 Posted : 16 July 2012 15:00:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

chris, If it was that simple to come to one answer responses then you wouldn't need us lot, just a manual. The whole problem comes from application of solutions to situation where each situation has different variables. It's alright quoting HSE guidance but much of the time even HSE Inspectors will pick and choose which bits of the guidance can / should be applied to each circumstance. I know for a fact that I used to go into factories and say to companies, look the guidance says such and such but the reality is that it's not a very pragmatic approach, it's not something that tends to get enforced on so don't worry about it. That may suprise you but that's how it is. In writing I always follow the law but my verbal advice may differ somewhat especially when there are so many things that need doing that you need to prioritise. I really think that standing on a solid table to put up some bunting is really low down in the big scheme of things.
chris42  
#74 Posted : 16 July 2012 16:14:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Clairel. Thank you for your response it was a good one, and sorry in advance for being a little bit flippant in my response, It is not intended for offence and the bit about morals is not aimed at you in any way, just a general thought. Quote [If it was that simple to come to one answer responses then you wouldn't need us lot, just a manual.] So it’s a self-preservation thing! Would a manual be so bad for things which as you say are lower down the list, and then we could all concentrate on the bigger stuff? And organisations would not get conflicting advice every new adviser they meet. Quote [ The whole problem comes from application of solutions to situation where each situation has different variables. It's alright quoting HSE guidance but much of the time even HSE Inspectors will pick and choose which bits of the guidance can / should be applied to each circumstance. ] For those of us who didn’t benefit from direct HSE training, is there a list of what HSE guidance we can ignore ? How does someone new to H&S decide what guidance to ignore (before anyone suggests experience – that’s a cop out) Quote [I know for a fact that I used to go into factories and say to companies, look the guidance says such and such but the reality is that it's not a very pragmatic approach, it's not something that tends to get enforced on so don't worry about it. That may surprise you but that's how it is.] Not surprised as it goes, but I was taught that compliance with the law was only one reason to promote good safety, the others being economic and moral reasons. Hence my post about the economic issues for a smaller company. In this current fashion of not wanting to appear overzealous can we not afford to have morals anymore. Do we consider if we break one employee it is easy to get a replacement, so charge ahead. Quote [In writing I always follow the law but my verbal advice may differ somewhat especially when there are so many things that need doing that you need to prioritise.] I agree you can’t do everything at once Quote [I really think that standing on a solid table to put up some bunting is really low down in the big scheme of things] Agreed it may not be the biggest issue, but not off the list. You talk above of the HSE training and I would expect that training to get you to go to an organisation, get in, look for the big issues and get out. Even as a consultant they should be able to handle the smaller stuff, so want to pay only for the bigger issues. However if you are an employee of the company, I think they would want you to consider the issues from top to bottom, not just the “big stuff”. I’m not sure I have put this as well as I could, but I hope you get the gist of it. (again just musing why we may have differing opinions). This is by no means a clear cut issue, there are a lot of people looking at this thread and wondering what the answer is going to come out as (boy are they going to be disappointed).
pete48  
#75 Posted : 16 July 2012 16:22:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Claire, are you sure that I am actually on the other side? I thought the challenge I offered was to consider whether it was necessary or worth taking the risk and not just to be driven by the significance or importance of the risk (as judged by whomever). I don't recall actually saying that I would not allow the use of a desk? Good business is about avoiding unnecessary risk whilst remaining dynamic in responding to risks that one chooses or cannot avoid. Ray, thanks for taking the time to open the debate further. May I just say that I only gave the accident details as my little 'nudge' memory. I never intended to suggest a worst case scenario basis for a risk assessment. It was the experience of suffering such an accident, within a high risk sector environment, that showed us that we did need to keep office staff on the radar and help them to manage their risks in just the same way as their colleagues elsewhere in the company. May I also make it clear that I am talking generally about the way in which employees individually approach risk management and not the absolutes of any specific risks. Those absolutes, as Claire often reminds us, are actually variables that will be prompting debate as long as there are workplaces. Long may those debates continue. p48
Melrose80086  
#76 Posted : 17 July 2012 12:41:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Melrose80086

Think I lost the will to live about half way through..no wonder the media have a field day at times over H&S and this government hates those working in the field so much... What ever happened to sensible risk management?! I was asked about a Mini Olympics in an office to raise cash for charity - said as long as they weren't synchronised swimming or having shooting events but were sensible about it, that would be fine. The person running the thing gave me a list of "events", how they were planning to run them and asked if there were any issues they should consider from a "H&S point of view". Gave advice and wished them well. Following week no RIDDOR or accident forms...just an email saying they'd had a great afternoon and raised a fair amount for charity.
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