A number of our employees have to work in areas where there may be (mainly) farm animals - cattle, dogs etc and some have recently had 'near misses' where cows have chased them. One guy had to use a shovel he happened to be carrying to fend off a farm dog. Can anyone give us some advice as to how to prepare our employees. I've 'googled' pepper sprays and found they are illegal

I think this one comes down to maintaining the hierarchy of control and eliminating the risk. With this in mind the task itself needs to be planned so that where animals known to be on site the owner will need to remove them from that location before work starts. I come from a county upbringing and know the risks from livestock, both in terms of physical injury as well as the risk from various zoonoses, but there's a lot of people who don't fully appreciate how dangerous being in close vicinity of farm animals can be. From my point of view the owner of the livestock should be notified in sufficient time to enable the removal of the animals before staff arrive on site. It would also be advisable that you arrange training on animal handling to improve understanding of the risks. Using physical methods such as pepper sprays isn't a suitable control measure because if the employee needs to use it, it's already too late.

Sam, realistically for anyone to have any hope of giving you any real practical and pragmatic advice, we need more information about what sort of work your employees are engaged in, what sort of places they are visiting, how long they are there etc. If you ask half a question, you might expect to get half an answer! Cows in or with calf can be particularly protective and aggressive. Communication with the farmer/landowner would seem an appropriate first step. And at risk of being, or being accused of being, pedantic, grumpy, provocative or whatever, quoting S2 is of little practical use. Of course I might just be being grumpy today! Is there a Friday thread?

OK, well, yes cows can be dangerous, especially if they have calves, and especially if you have a dog about your person, but a bit of perspective is also helpful. In the nine years 1990-98 there were 18 reports of cow attack to HSE; just about 2 per annum. Compare this to the number of workers killed on the roads every year (well into four figures - probably). So, what I suggest is some appropriate training in cow-handling, and maybe do what the rambler's association suggests, which is carry a stick. Of course it is probably better if the cows are removed, this gets a small risk down to zero, but it is a low risk, John

Andrew, I think the point of the stick isn't to attack the cows with it; cows get driven by men with sticks, it's there to show who's boss, John

My reference was more with re. to the shovel and the dog. a Cow stick is different. Rather than a Elephant hook stick.

I'd suggest you're stastical evidence is a little out of date. There's evidence to suggest that the HSE have recorded over 480 cases where people have been injured by cows since 2004. Whilst small in comparison to RTA figures (and lets face it, RTA's will make any workplace risk pale in comparison) it's still a known risk that carries quite a high consequence to it. I'd also urge caution when suggesting people to 'carry a stick' as a deterent. If you're unfortunate enough to be stood in front of an aggitated herd it doesn't matter how big your stick is, it won't be enough to fend them off.

I am uncertain where this thread is actually going. It appears to be accepted that the person needs to use some form of aide within the area to control the animals - although they have no husbandry skills. It does need to be pointed out that farmer are just a bunch of simpletons who carry plastic piping. It is skilled and knowledgeable field of work. Working with animals, more importantly working with stock, isn't about standing in a field. I appreciate that this isn't what GB's means – as he is very properly offering what is assumed to be practical solutions – and by no means is this really directed at him. However, the inference of the how the trend is developing seems to accept that a bunch of workers who appear to have no agricultural experience can address issues whilst working within an agricultural site by threatening behaviour. Here are some basic principles (which may help here): (1) Animal dangers: - Bites - Kicks - Pinning workers between fixed objects (buildings, machinery) (2) When handling animals - Be calm and deliberate - Speak gently -,Animals have sensitive hearing - Reduced depth perception - Cannot see something right behind them (3) When approaching animals: - Announce your approach - Touch an animal’s front or side - Avoid common kicking region (4) Use caution approaching animals that are: - Frightened - Hurt - Sick - Protecting their young (5) Leave yourself an “out” - Avoid small, enclosed areas - Use adequate restraining and handling facilities - Work outside chutes However, before we continue we must understand what the work is that these people are doing to enter these sites? The context is key. What is the training these staff are getting for this working environment etc? Otherwise, as practitioners, we are seemingly accepting that that there is a group of workers whose competency for the environment is scant and that either ultrasonic, foam, a shovel, stick or other object which they can carry in their hand an wave around like a madman, is an acceptable control measure. If I saw someone doing this on my family farm I’d been inclined to show them the end of my boot. Logically, if I had someone working in my paddock I’d move the stock into another paddock. I’d also make sure the fences are turned off. With regards to the farm dogs – these do tend to be trained working dogs (not pets) and are excited by new people – however, the prior to the works it should be ascertained if they there are dog(s) onsite and it can be requested that the farmer keeps them leashed etc. Again, if I saw someone swinging a shovel at my dog I’d reckon they are inviting me to do the same to them. Planning, reccy, assess, induct.

Hi All, Since cows are a substance that may be hazardous to health, surely we can use the old, well tried and tested ERICPD routine to the cow/person interface? Eliminate.......killl the cow! Reduce.....only get involved with calves Isolate....make sure the Mother cow is in the cowshed! Control......cattle prods? Protect.....cow proof suits (if there is such a thing) Discipline......don't mess with angry cows! I apologise,,,,,,I'm in a grumpy mood,,,,and my job job search is not going well,,,,,I've had a beer or 2,,,,and my wife wants me to go shopping with her tomorrow.....once again,,,I apologise! Holmezy Reduce

It does surprise me the number of people that will turn up to do some work on a farm without notifying or discussing their intended presence with the farmer. It allows the farmer, if he so chooses, to adapt his routine, or move his livestock, so as to accommodate them. After all, you would not expect someone to walk into a private garden or property area to examine or work on something without informing the owner of their intentions. Generally, people have right of entry into a farm property only to and from access to the farm dwelling house(s). A farm dog is not permitted to prevent such access, and if considered a potential threat must be suitably housed or restrained when in that area. Should such a dog attack a person legitimately approaching the farmhouse door, then the dog can be put down by the police. But remember a dog is a territorial animal and in many cases is only seeking to protect his home, and simply allowing a little time for a loose dog to recognise that the intruder is no threat is sufficient. Stand still, face the dog, and allow it to approach to check you out. If you have to retreat, walk backwards, and do not turn, and never run. If you find yourself facing a madly barking dog, stand still and do not go forwards. The dog is summoning assistance, and you have to hope it will be the owner, and not another two Alsatians, that arrives first! The public has right of entry into a field with a rights of way through it, and a farmer is not allowed to have a dairy bull in such a field, and should not have cows with young calves at foot or cows about to calf. A beef bull is a much more placid animal, and can run with cows in such a field provided he is of "no known aggression". Other fields have no right of public access, though there is a plethora of professions who have, or may consider they have, rights of access, such as electrical companies, waterway companies, land agents, shooting syndicates, highway surveyors, wind farm operatives, etc. These may well encounter potentially dangerous cattle. A bull may well decide to protect his herd from a potential threat, and if a bull appears to be taking a lot of interest in your presence, then slowly withdraw from the field. If entry into such a field is a must, then enter in a vehicle such that there is a "safe haven" to withdraw to. The bull may well decide to wreck the vehicle, but at least you should be safe inside. A cow with a young calf, or one about to calf, is extremely protective of its young, and may well see a person as a potential predator. Often a dog is involved, but not always. An alarmed cow will bellow for assistance, so summoning the survival instinct such that the whole herd will come to her assistance with the intention of surrounding and trampling the "predator". If faced with a herd of bellowing cows racing towards you, and you think you have enough time to get back out of the field, or behind a tree, or back to the vehicle, then run like hell. If not, then do not run, but face the herd, and raise your arms to make yourself as big as possible. Shout like crazy to scare off the herd, and to summon help. If you have a dog, let it go, and send it away, do not let it hide behind your legs. The cows will be intent on trampling it and will trample you in the process. If you have a small dog, pick it up, and this sometimes diffuses the situation immediately. Should you have a stick with you, then smack the nose of the leading cows really hard. It is your only chance of halting the leading animals before the herd arrives and the situation is out of control. If you find yourself being the centre of attention of a group of young cattle, then they are probably being purely inquisitive, and are no potential threat. They simply want to accompany you, and will follow you around their field. I was a dairy herd manager for 10 years and a HSE inspector for 20 years. The two times an entry was made for me in the HSE accident book was due to be bitten by farm dogs. On one occasion the farmer's wife was seriously objecting to my right of entry, and the collie decided she clearly needed assistance, and came up to me from behind and bit into my right leg! She asked what would happen now, only for me to inform her that I would have to inform the police. She disappeared to find her husband and I was escorted around the whole farm with no further bother. Sadly, I have had to investigate some serious cattle accidents, with some involving fatalities to farmers and to the public. However, one accident report that remains in my memory was of a wind farm operative who found himself suspended on his rope and being violently swayed around such that he found himself being smacked back and forth into the vane. A small herd of cattle had passed underneath and had caught the end of his rope around the leg of one of them!

Isn't it a shame that having posed the question, that Sam hasn't thought to come back and provide further information about the scenario that led to his original post? Hopefully the information from Farmsafety will be helpful though.

Well, we must hope that these were frivolous comments and not an intention to use violence. We cannot be certain. I'm actually surprised the comments survived moderation. It reflects particularly badly on the individual, but also risks tarnishing the IOSH name.

It is a good point about breed difference - especially on beef farms where some cross breeds have been observed to be more flighty than others. That said, studies have shown that it is more likely to be a cows history that is a bigger factor in its behaviour (nature v nurture again). Whatever your view, it all goes to show that cows are very unpredictable and very dangerous. There is massive underreporting, not only in self employed dairy farms but also in corporate beef farms & abatoirs where the traditional machismo attitude often prevails. Going back to the OP this is definately a risk that requires a great deal of management. Obviously this depends on the exact circumstances, which is why more information is required, but in many industries risks of injury from cattle is the most serious and common accident. A risk which may require more control measures than a stick....

My various none English in-laws/relatives [4 different countries] cannot understand this country at all as it appears to put the welfare of animals before the welfare of humans as in their countries people are proactive in this area and have the appropriate protection for their staff in hand and act proactively as needed where we wait until a dog bites somebody before we try to manage the dog afterwards making sure that it has not hurt itself because of its biting its target We should proactively protect employees from animals as we do in every other area Just my personal comments

Jeez, your feathers are somewhat ruffled. Firstly, I will apologise for misquoting. It was actually JWK who had given the lvery ow figures but as you had quoted JWK I accidentally misquoted you. It happens. No need to get uptight about it. As for the other stuff, I stand my everything I put in my post, which if you read is pretty much along the lines of what Farmsafety said. However, just becuase someone has worked on farms does not mean they know it all when it comes to farm safety (no offence intended at you specifically Farmsafety) otherwise we wouldn't have the dire accident stats in agriculture that we do. And if you could hear everything that farmers say, you would definately not think that farmers know how to look after their own safety. The saying familiarity breeds contempt is very apt. I think you will find that Farmsafety agreed that you cannot run unless you have a very short distance to go and know you are a fast runner. You obviously haven't seen cows and bulls charge, they are very fast when they've a mind to. You can try and belittle my knowledge all you like but I don't just visit a farm occasionally I'm on farms every week, ex-ag inspector and I also train farmers in farm safety. I don't know it all and have never claimed to but there really was no need for you to basically say that I have no competence on the subject. I suggest that if you feel that way you report me to IOSH for incompetence. I'm more than happy to stand my ground thank you.

Ian B I think you misread the opening comment of my response at #22. In case I didn't phrase it adequately, I was trying to state that I made an assumption that YOUR response at #20 was not intended to be tongue-in cheek, facetious, frivolous or similar. Also, do you really think the comments about kicking and shovels near the end of response #15 could tarnish IOSH's name/reputation? Either you are alone in this thinking or there may be others who also think that some comments on this forum could reflect badly on IOSH. Either way, and for other reasons as well, there's surely a need for a disclaimer to be clearly visible to everybody who visits the forum. Many other websites with e-forums and comments pages have clear disclaimers, so it remains something of a mystery as to why this forum doesn't have one. :-(